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Reply #30 posted 01/02/18 10:08am

IanRG

Dasein said:

IanRG said:

.

And we are back to everyone else is stupid and no one understands you.

.

The important context when reviewing what another person said is not your context but the context within which that other person made their statement. You nuanced out all of Thich Nhat Hanh's context. As I said before: Nuance must be understood in context, not become the context. In any philosophical analysis you need to consider the context, including all of what is said by the other person, why the other person said, who the other person was and who their audience is. As a religious philosopher, Thich Nhat Hanh would never offer sagely advice by saying "I favour or prefer a happiness that is based on peace" even if that is what he meant. He would (and did) say "true happiness is based on peace" not on excitement. "True" here can be read as just the indicator of the favoured, preferred, sustainable, lasting option. You should have concentrated on differences between the two sets of options being happiness where it based on an excited, unpeaceful state or where it based on a peaceful and sustainable state.

.

Please, please, please reply, you have found me out: My life is incomplete without you - NOT. Good golly, you really need to get over yourself.


Hanh said what he thought was "true" about happiness - it's one that's based on inner peace. I
asked Morning if she thought Hanh's definition was one that was better than or truer than any
other based upon his use of the word "true." She ultimately said "no." I told her why I asked her
that question which was because I get irritated when religious/spiritual people speak authoritatively
or definitively about things as being "true" for reasons already mentioned. There's no reason why
Hanh's definition of happiness couldn't be true if it wasn't based upon inner peace, in other words.

If you noticed, I didn't reply to your post because most of the times, nothing you say is ever really
interesting and that's not only including this thread but others. So, I think you just like to argue with
me and if you decided to place yourself on another self-imposed ban from speaking to me, I wouldn't
mind! Heheheheheheh! I comment on the poor reading comprehension skills and inability to think
clearly here at the Org because I often encounter the same with some of my students; I'm simply
astonished as to how people simply do not think before they speak sometimes!

Oh, I just remembered: you need the last word. Please do, Saint Ian!

.

When you selectively restate an opening argument without thinking you just go back to the beginning. You had shown progress in recognising that Thich Nhat Hanh was not stating a single definition but comparative bases for a "gazillion" definitions. In this he identified a preferred basis for each of the many types of happiness to be more true than the many others based on the alternate basis.

.

My last word is just to point out that you have yet again demonstrated that mocking is an amazingly poor debating tactic only used when you have no better answer. You need to think about this before you speak.

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Reply #31 posted 01/02/18 12:25pm

morningsong

I'm not a Buddhist but there are some things I find interesting and pretty blunt which attracts me. Things I think most try to avoid dealing with.



There’s no denying that life is tough.

We might appear that we’re happy, but deep inside, it’s total chaos. It’s almost like we’re “ducks” – calm on the surface but paddling furiously underneath.

But the worst thing we can do is avoid the difficult aspects of life.

According to Buddhist philosophy, happiness involves embracing and accepting all the different aspects of life, even if they’re negative.

Otherwise we’re turning a blind eye to reality and resisting the natural forces of the universe.

So below, we’re going to go over 3 truths about life Buddhism says we’d all benefit from accepting.

1) Dukka: Life is pain and causes suffering.



This is the first noble truth of Buddhism. You might think that this sounds quite negative. But there’s more to it than simply “Life is tough, so accept it.”

The truth is, we create more suffering in our lives by avoiding difficult emotions.

Buddha is right: Every single one of us will at one point experience unpleasant emotions like anxiety, stress, and sadness.

We often try to avoid these feelings through attaching ourselves to material items and fleeting states of being like excitement. However, doing this often a recipe for more disappointment and sadness in the future.


2. Anitya: Life is change.

Anitya means “impermanence” which states that nothing is ever fixed. Everything is changing. The weather changes, our emotions change, we are born and eventually pass away; the only law in the universe is that change is constant.

This concept can help us when we are experiencing difficult emotions as we know they won’t last forever. Our pain will pass.

When we experience joy, we know that the feeling is fleeting, so we better make the most of it while it lasts. Greek philosopher Heraclitus mirrored the belief when he famously said, “You can never step in the same river twice.” All we have is the present moment.


3. Anatma: The self is always changing.




In the west, we tend to believe that there is a concrete, constant self tucked away somewhere in us.

Buddhism, however, says that there is no fixed, stable “self”. Our cells, memories, thoughts, experiences always change over time. We give ourselves names, titles and personalities to make it feel like there is a sense of “self”. But this is another idea given to us from our society.

According to Buddhism, our lives are a story we can change. As Thich Nhat Hanh says, “Thanks to impermanence, anything is possible.”



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Reply #32 posted 01/02/18 2:09pm

IanRG

morningsong said:

I'm not a Buddhist but there are some things I find interesting and pretty blunt which attracts me. Things I think most try to avoid dealing with.



There’s no denying that life is tough.

We might appear that we’re happy, but deep inside, it’s total chaos. It’s almost like we’re “ducks” – calm on the surface but paddling furiously underneath.

But the worst thing we can do is avoid the difficult aspects of life.

According to Buddhist philosophy, happiness involves embracing and accepting all the different aspects of life, even if they’re negative.

Otherwise we’re turning a blind eye to reality and resisting the natural forces of the universe.

So below, we’re going to go over 3 truths about life Buddhism says we’d all benefit from accepting.

1) Dukka: Life is pain and causes suffering.



This is the first noble truth of Buddhism. You might think that this sounds quite negative. But there’s more to it than simply “Life is tough, so accept it.”

The truth is, we create more suffering in our lives by avoiding difficult emotions.

Buddha is right: Every single one of us will at one point experience unpleasant emotions like anxiety, stress, and sadness.

We often try to avoid these feelings through attaching ourselves to material items and fleeting states of being like excitement. However, doing this often a recipe for more disappointment and sadness in the future.


2. Anitya: Life is change.

Anitya means “impermanence” which states that nothing is ever fixed. Everything is changing. The weather changes, our emotions change, we are born and eventually pass away; the only law in the universe is that change is constant.

This concept can help us when we are experiencing difficult emotions as we know they won’t last forever. Our pain will pass.

When we experience joy, we know that the feeling is fleeting, so we better make the most of it while it lasts. Greek philosopher Heraclitus mirrored the belief when he famously said, “You can never step in the same river twice.” All we have is the present moment.


3. Anatma: The self is always changing.




In the west, we tend to believe that there is a concrete, constant self tucked away somewhere in us.

Buddhism, however, says that there is no fixed, stable “self”. Our cells, memories, thoughts, experiences always change over time. We give ourselves names, titles and personalities to make it feel like there is a sense of “self”. But this is another idea given to us from our society.

According to Buddhism, our lives are a story we can change. As Thich Nhat Hanh says, “Thanks to impermanence, anything is possible.”



.

My understanding, also as not a Buddhist is:

The first two of these three:

1 - Duhkha (the recognition that there is suffering in life and that fleeting happiness does not solve or prevent this. Duhkha is the first of the 4 truths of the spiritually noble, aka Noble Truths), and

2 - Anitya (the recognition of impermanence of the body as it grows and then grows old and the impermanence of the thoughts and feelings in the mind)

is that these two concepts do share a lot in common with many Western religions and philosophies.

.

These two together with the third are considered three core characteristics of all existence and the recognition of these are known as the right understanding of existance. The third is different from a religion with the concept of a God-given permanent Soul but only in regards to that Soul. This is Anatman - The complete impermanency of humans including a rejection of the Hindu equivalent of the permanent Soul - the atman.

.

The purpose of understanding this "right understanding" of existence is that, by being spiritually noble, you will know the remaining three Noble truths, and be able to use this knowledge to develop and improve yourself to positively improve life around you. These are noble goals and ones that we should all work on contributing to.

.

There are many single words and nuances within this that lead a person away from understanding what is being said but these are distractions. My experience of Buddhism is through Myanmar. A historical distraction from this from their history is whether a Monk's robes should have one or two shoulders as some tropical Monastries allowed single shoulder robes to chagrin of more traditional and visiting monks.

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Reply #33 posted 01/02/18 4:34pm

NorthC

If we remember that both the Indian cultures and the classical cultures come from the Indo-European cultures that originated somewhere in the steppes of Eurasia thousands of years ago and then spread both in eastern and western directions, then it's no surprise that both eastern and western philosophy have some things in common...
I may disagree with everything you say, but I will defend your right to say it.
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Reply #34 posted 01/02/18 5:47pm

morningsong

IanRG said:

morningsong said:

I'm not a Buddhist but there are some things I find interesting and pretty blunt which attracts me. Things I think most try to avoid dealing with.



There’s no denying that life is tough.

We might appear that we’re happy, but deep inside, it’s total chaos. It’s almost like we’re “ducks” – calm on the surface but paddling furiously underneath.

But the worst thing we can do is avoid the difficult aspects of life.

According to Buddhist philosophy, happiness involves embracing and accepting all the different aspects of life, even if they’re negative.

Otherwise we’re turning a blind eye to reality and resisting the natural forces of the universe.

So below, we’re going to go over 3 truths about life Buddhism says we’d all benefit from accepting.

1) Dukka: Life is pain and causes suffering.



This is the first noble truth of Buddhism. You might think that this sounds quite negative. But there’s more to it than simply “Life is tough, so accept it.”

The truth is, we create more suffering in our lives by avoiding difficult emotions.

Buddha is right: Every single one of us will at one point experience unpleasant emotions like anxiety, stress, and sadness.

We often try to avoid these feelings through attaching ourselves to material items and fleeting states of being like excitement. However, doing this often a recipe for more disappointment and sadness in the future.


2. Anitya: Life is change.

Anitya means “impermanence” which states that nothing is ever fixed. Everything is changing. The weather changes, our emotions change, we are born and eventually pass away; the only law in the universe is that change is constant.

This concept can help us when we are experiencing difficult emotions as we know they won’t last forever. Our pain will pass.

When we experience joy, we know that the feeling is fleeting, so we better make the most of it while it lasts. Greek philosopher Heraclitus mirrored the belief when he famously said, “You can never step in the same river twice.” All we have is the present moment.


3. Anatma: The self is always changing.




In the west, we tend to believe that there is a concrete, constant self tucked away somewhere in us.

Buddhism, however, says that there is no fixed, stable “self”. Our cells, memories, thoughts, experiences always change over time. We give ourselves names, titles and personalities to make it feel like there is a sense of “self”. But this is another idea given to us from our society.

According to Buddhism, our lives are a story we can change. As Thich Nhat Hanh says, “Thanks to impermanence, anything is possible.”



.

My understanding, also as not a Buddhist is:

The first two of these three:

1 - Duhkha (the recognition that there is suffering in life and that fleeting happiness does not solve or prevent this. Duhkha is the first of the 4 truths of the spiritually noble, aka Noble Truths), and

2 - Anitya (the recognition of impermanence of the body as it grows and then grows old and the impermanence of the thoughts and feelings in the mind)

is that these two concepts do share a lot in common with many Western religions and philosophies.

.

These two together with the third are considered three core characteristics of all existence and the recognition of these are known as the right understanding of existance. The third is different from a religion with the concept of a God-given permanent Soul but only in regards to that Soul. This is Anatman - The complete impermanency of humans including a rejection of the Hindu equivalent of the permanent Soul - the atman.

.

The purpose of understanding this "right understanding" of existence is that, by being spiritually noble, you will know the remaining three Noble truths, and be able to use this knowledge to develop and improve yourself to positively improve life around you. These are noble goals and ones that we should all work on contributing to.

.

There are many single words and nuances within this that lead a person away from understanding what is being said but these are distractions. My experience of Buddhism is through Myanmar. A historical distraction from this from their history is whether a Monk's robes should have one or two shoulders as some tropical Monastries allowed single shoulder robes to chagrin of more traditional and visiting monks.



I'll post the 4 Noble Truths later. I can see the 1st 2 being easily accepted, but that 3rd one is not what I'd say is western culture. Which takes me back to the black church, because I remember growing up and hearing adults saying that the problem with the black church was the teaching of accepting ones circumstance. As a child I didn't quite comprehend what they were talking about. Then boom, you have the prosperity message. Simple acceptance is not acceptable in this culture.



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Reply #35 posted 01/06/18 1:51pm

IanRG

morningsong said:

IanRG said:

.

My understanding, also as not a Buddhist is:

The first two of these three:

1 - Duhkha (the recognition that there is suffering in life and that fleeting happiness does not solve or prevent this. Duhkha is the first of the 4 truths of the spiritually noble, aka Noble Truths), and

2 - Anitya (the recognition of impermanence of the body as it grows and then grows old and the impermanence of the thoughts and feelings in the mind)

is that these two concepts do share a lot in common with many Western religions and philosophies.

.

These two together with the third are considered three core characteristics of all existence and the recognition of these are known as the right understanding of existance. The third is different from a religion with the concept of a God-given permanent Soul but only in regards to that Soul. This is Anatman - The complete impermanency of humans including a rejection of the Hindu equivalent of the permanent Soul - the atman.

.

The purpose of understanding this "right understanding" of existence is that, by being spiritually noble, you will know the remaining three Noble truths, and be able to use this knowledge to develop and improve yourself to positively improve life around you. These are noble goals and ones that we should all work on contributing to.

.

There are many single words and nuances within this that lead a person away from understanding what is being said but these are distractions. My experience of Buddhism is through Myanmar. A historical distraction from this from their history is whether a Monk's robes should have one or two shoulders as some tropical Monastries allowed single shoulder robes to chagrin of more traditional and visiting monks.



I'll post the 4 Noble Truths later. I can see the 1st 2 being easily accepted, but that 3rd one is not what I'd say is western culture. Which takes me back to the black church, because I remember growing up and hearing adults saying that the problem with the black church was the teaching of accepting ones circumstance. As a child I didn't quite comprehend what they were talking about. Then boom, you have the prosperity message. Simple acceptance is not acceptable in this culture.

.

Its been a while, so I will chip in about the second truth:

.

My understanding of the 4 Noble Truths (or Truths known by the Spiritually Noble for it is not the truths that are noble, but the knowing of these truths that is noble) is that, compared to many Western religions and philosophies, especially Christianity, is that the objective of the path is different but the journey is very much the same.

.

The first, Duhkha, we have discussed but only from how it is included together with the impermanence of circumstance, life and the person. That "true" happiness, is all the types of happinesses that we can sustain when not stressed but are at peace. The important thing is that these Noble truths should not be seen as 4 separate truths, but as a whole. The first truth says nothing about why there is suffering or stress because it is only about being realistic about how life is. By itself it looks pessimistic because it talks about the impermanence of happiness. It could just as well talk about the impermanence of sadness - except it is part of whole that is seeking to improve things through understanding the 4 truths together.

.

The second Truth, Samudaya, is about the causes of these stresses especially suffering. These are attributed to clinging to hold on to cravings and on ignorance, being the misconception of the nature of things (the right understanding of existance based on Duhkha, Anitya and Anatman discussed above). These lead you to act and think because you see pleasure where these is pain, beauty where there is ugliness, permanence where there is impermanence, self where there is no self. This relies on recognising the interdependance of things - e.g. what is the cause of the suffering of old age and sickness? It is birth.

.

The Samudaya can be seen as having a lot in common with Western thought, both in its success (encouraging people to good thoughts, acts and deeds) and failings (where people attribute suffering to individuals thinking and acting not in accordance with religious teaching). It recognises that the cause of suffering can be us and how we act to and by clinging to wrong thoughts and things. This can lead to recognising our responsibility is to seek to do the right things with understanding (eg the Fourth Truth and its Middle Way or Astangika-marga (Eight-fold path) is very similar in many ways to the how Christians are expected to act according to Christ's teachings). However, just as the complete impermanence of self is a key difference, this second truth includes differences that lead to the third truth being the different objective of the fourth. A key one of these is the concept of no self. Still the importance of this to me as a non-Buddhist is the realistic recognition of implications and responsibilities, the desire to learn more and to think and act for the benefit of all.

[Edited 1/6/18 13:56pm]

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Reply #36 posted 01/07/18 6:20am

Ace

avatar

morningsong said:

We’ve all asked the question, “what is happiness?”

Is it a feeling? Having stable circumstances in life? Or is it something that’s deeply personal and can’t be defined?

Well, according to Buddhist master Thich Nhat Hanh, it’s simply a way of being.

In fact, in a simple, but profound quote below, Thich Nhat Hanh says that true happiness is based on inner peace:

“Many people think excitement is happiness…. But when you are excited you are not peaceful. True happiness is based on peace.”

Thich Nhat Hanh says that acceptance is an important part of being peaceful. Yet, in western society, too many people try to change themselves for other people.

However, this is futile to our own inner peace and happiness:

“To be beautiful means to be yourself.You don’t need to be accepted by others. You need to accept yourself. When you are born a lotus flower, be a beautiful lotus flower, don’t try to be a magnolia flower. If you crave acceptance and recognition and try to change yourself to fit what other people want you to be, you will suffer all your life. True happiness and true power lie in understanding yourself, accepting yourself, having confidence in yourself.”

Thich Nhat Hanh says that to achieve acceptance, we need to start embracing the present moment and the beautiful miracles that exist around us:

“When we are mindful, deeply in touch with the present moment, our understanding of what is going on deepens, and we begin to be filled with acceptance, joy, peace and love…Around us, life bursts with miracles–a glass of water, a ray of sunshine, a leaf, a caterpillar, a flower, laughter, raindrops. If you live in awareness, it is easy to see miracles everywhere. Each human being is a multiplicity of miracles. Eyes that see thousands of colors, shapes, and forms; ears that hear a bee flying or a thunderclap; a brain that ponders a speck of dust as easily as the entire cosmos; a heart that beats in rhythm with the heartbeat of all beings. When we are tired and feel discouraged by life’s daily struggles, we may not notice these miracles, but they are always there.”

Thich Nhat Hanh goes onto say that this doesn’t mean we never think about the past or plan for the future, but that we do so in a productive way:

“To dwell in the here and now does not mean you never think about the past or responsibly plan for the future. The idea is simply not to allow yourself to get lost in regrets about the past or worries about the future. If you are firmly grounded in the present moment, the past can be an object of inquiry, the object of your mindfulness and concentration. You can attain many insights by looking into the past. But you are still grounded in the present moment.”


thumbs up!

"Acceptance, forgiveness, and love."
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Reply #37 posted 01/07/18 6:22am

Ace

avatar

TrivialPursuit said:

He's one of the great thinkers alive right now.


thumbs up!

"Acceptance, forgiveness, and love."
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Reply #38 posted 01/07/18 10:40am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Ace.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #39 posted 01/07/18 12:17pm

Ace

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

Ace.


Freaky. hug

"Acceptance, forgiveness, and love."
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Reply #40 posted 01/08/18 10:46am

morningsong

IanRG said:

morningsong said:



I'll post the 4 Noble Truths later. I can see the 1st 2 being easily accepted, but that 3rd one is not what I'd say is western culture. Which takes me back to the black church, because I remember growing up and hearing adults saying that the problem with the black church was the teaching of accepting ones circumstance. As a child I didn't quite comprehend what they were talking about. Then boom, you have the prosperity message. Simple acceptance is not acceptable in this culture.

.

Its been a while, so I will chip in about the second truth:

.

My understanding of the 4 Noble Truths (or Truths known by the Spiritually Noble for it is not the truths that are noble, but the knowing of these truths that is noble) is that, compared to many Western religions and philosophies, especially Christianity, is that the objective of the path is different but the journey is very much the same.

.

The first, Duhkha, we have discussed but only from how it is included together with the impermanence of circumstance, life and the person. That "true" happiness, is all the types of happinesses that we can sustain when not stressed but are at peace. The important thing is that these Noble truths should not be seen as 4 separate truths, but as a whole. The first truth says nothing about why there is suffering or stress because it is only about being realistic about how life is. By itself it looks pessimistic because it talks about the impermanence of happiness. It could just as well talk about the impermanence of sadness - except it is part of whole that is seeking to improve things through understanding the 4 truths together.

.

The second Truth, Samudaya, is about the causes of these stresses especially suffering. These are attributed to clinging to hold on to cravings and on ignorance, being the misconception of the nature of things (the right understanding of existance based on Duhkha, Anitya and Anatman discussed above). These lead you to act and think because you see pleasure where these is pain, beauty where there is ugliness, permanence where there is impermanence, self where there is no self. This relies on recognising the interdependance of things - e.g. what is the cause of the suffering of old age and sickness? It is birth.

.

The Samudaya can be seen as having a lot in common with Western thought, both in its success (encouraging people to good thoughts, acts and deeds) and failings (where people attribute suffering to individuals thinking and acting not in accordance with religious teaching). It recognises that the cause of suffering can be us and how we act to and by clinging to wrong thoughts and things. This can lead to recognising our responsibility is to seek to do the right things with understanding (eg the Fourth Truth and its Middle Way or Astangika-marga (Eight-fold path) is very similar in many ways to the how Christians are expected to act according to Christ's teachings). However, just as the complete impermanence of self is a key difference, this second truth includes differences that lead to the third truth being the different objective of the fourth. A key one of these is the concept of no self. Still the importance of this to me as a non-Buddhist is the realistic recognition of implications and responsibilities, the desire to learn more and to think and act for the benefit of all.

[Edited 1/6/18 13:56pm]



I guess it depends on how it's presented.








Nirodh - sometimes comes off as saying, just stop wanting stuff and suffering ends.

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Reply #41 posted 01/08/18 11:12am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

Daesin, get an avatar.

do you mean a 12-foot tall space-traveling robot or an image for the ORG?



either way one is impossible and the other is broken...

Anyone for banning the AR15 must be on the side of the criminal as once banned only criminals will have them.
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Reply #42 posted 01/08/18 11:27am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

You need a new one pooks.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #43 posted 01/08/18 11:33am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

You need a new one pooks.

a new what one? Burger Buns

Anyone for banning the AR15 must be on the side of the criminal as once banned only criminals will have them.
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Reply #44 posted 01/08/18 12:13pm

IanRG

morningsong said:

I guess it depends on how it's presented.

th?id=OIP.UM6x--XI4YlfPx8GX_G4QgHaFj&pid=15.1&P=0&w=224&h=169


4nobletruths.jpg



Nirodh - sometimes comes off as saying, just stop wanting stuff and suffering ends.

.

Yes, but this is all dependent on what is meant by "suffering". This concept is much wider than the dictionary definition of the English word being used in translation. My sources prefer the word "stress" as a closer translation of the concept. This fits better the quotes in the opening post because it recognises that one of the stresses of holding on to the impermanent is the pursuit of happiness through temporary excitement - the excitement this way relies on impermanent stress not a sustainable peace. So you can better simplify the four truths as:

.

Duhhka: The stresses in life that lead to suffering, anguish, pain or unsatisfactoriness.

.

Samudaya: What we hold on to that causes these stresses.

.

Nirodha: What we can achieve without these stresses.

.

Magga: How we can overcome these stresses.

.

The middle way in the fourth truth is not understood as ending the suffering the Buddha discussed - we still get sick, grow old and die - it is about understanding these and other stresses and how we can live better so they are not experienced as sufferings.

.

Just yesterday my Myanmar relative told us about her problems seeking to get on a plane from Seoul to Tashkent and ended this with true happiness coming from within. I replied to her that what she went through was "du'-hka just du'-hka" (Myanmar for Duhkha) - Despite all the stresses, what's not to be happy about?. If this was just suffering as generally understood in English, my reply would have been dismissive bordering on cruel. Instead, she and her mother both responded positively on Facebook.

[Edited 1/8/18 12:14pm]

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Reply #45 posted 01/09/18 2:04pm

Dasein

Suffering and stress are inescapble components of what it means to be human. Therefore, any
valorizing of it in the form of using it as some noble way to obtain a truth appears to be counter
to Buddhism itself. In other words: if we stop making suffering and/or stress some medium for
the attainment of something noble or valorous, but take it for what it is without judgment, that
neutral acceptance of suffering/stress appears to be closer to Buddhism's desire for us to live
without attachments than considering suffering as something that leads to a noble truth. Be-
sides, living without attachments is kinda silly for that is componential of being human too, in
my opinion.

But, I'm open to a difference of opinion here . . .

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Reply #46 posted 01/09/18 2:58pm

IanRG

Dasein said:

Suffering and stress are inescapble components of what it means to be human. Therefore, any
valorizing of it in the form of using it as some noble way to obtain a truth appears to be counter
to Buddhism itself. In other words: if we stop making suffering and/or stress some medium for
the attainment of something noble or valorous, but take it for what it is without judgment, that
neutral acceptance of suffering/stress appears to be closer to Buddhism's desire for us to live
without attachments than considering suffering as something that leads to a noble truth. Be-
sides, living without attachments is kinda silly for that is componential of being human too, in
my opinion.

But, I'm open to a difference of opinion here . . .

.

Yes, Duhkha is a natural and realistic component of what it means to be human. I would not say Buddhism has a neutral acceptance of Duhkha at all - it is an understanding about their impermanence, the adverse consequences of how we act in regard to these and an objective and plan to overcome these.

.

The way I see it is that it all needs to be considered together - the 4 truths held by the spiritually noble with the first 1 combined with the impermanence of life and self. This allows me to say that "duhhka is just duhhka" and not be dismissive but only because you can recognise this stress / suffering as being a mere result of reality so by the middle way you can choose to not be so stressed by it and you can live and think in the "right ways" so reality has less duhkha - Where I draw the line is whether you (now or in future lives) can achieve enlightenment so there is no duhkha.

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Reply #47 posted 01/09/18 3:12pm

Dasein

IanRG said:

Dasein said:

Suffering and stress are inescapble components of what it means to be human. Therefore, any
valorizing of it in the form of using it as some noble way to obtain a truth appears to be counter
to Buddhism itself. In other words: if we stop making suffering and/or stress some medium for
the attainment of something noble or valorous, but take it for what it is without judgment, that
neutral acceptance of suffering/stress appears to be closer to Buddhism's desire for us to live
without attachments than considering suffering as something that leads to a noble truth. Be-
sides, living without attachments is kinda silly for that is componential of being human too, in
my opinion.

But, I'm open to a difference of opinion here . . .

.

Yes, Duhkha is a natural and realistic component of what it means to be human. I would not say Buddhism has a neutral acceptance of Duhkha at all - it is an understanding about their impermanence, the adverse consequences of how we act in regard to these and an objective and plan to overcome these.

.

The way I see it is that it all needs to be considered together - the 4 truths held by the spiritually noble with the first 1 combined with the impermanence of life and self. This allows me to say that "duhhka is just duhhka" and not be dismissive but only because you can recognise this stress / suffering as being a mere result of reality so by the middle way you can choose to not be so stressed by it and you can live and think in the "right ways" so reality has less duhkha - Where I draw the line is whether you (now or in future lives) can achieve enlightenment so there is no duhkha.


I get what you're saying here, but I was not clear in what I was really saying:

There is nothing noble about life. The truths we obtain via suffering/stress are not noble. The
suffering/stress as a medium towards enlightenment or new understanding or truth is in and of
itself not noble. I am wondering why Buddhism makes any attempt to valorize any component
of life anyways for if it is componential, then there is nothing about it that is transcendent (under-
stood as going beyond what it means to be human). Nobility as a category reflecting what it
means to be human does not have much use if we're acknowledging that suffering/stress are
states or conditions that come with being human!

This is why I'm kinda confused because I always thought Buddhism made little to no value claims
about reality so when I read "duhhka is just duhhka" while remembering that the "4 truths held by
the spiritually noble . . . ", I'm even more confused.

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Reply #48 posted 01/09/18 5:50pm

IanRG

Dasein said:



IanRG said:




Dasein said:


Suffering and stress are inescapble components of what it means to be human. Therefore, any
valorizing of it in the form of using it as some noble way to obtain a truth appears to be counter
to Buddhism itself. In other words: if we stop making suffering and/or stress some medium for
the attainment of something noble or valorous, but take it for what it is without judgment, that
neutral acceptance of suffering/stress appears to be closer to Buddhism's desire for us to live
without attachments than considering suffering as something that leads to a noble truth. Be-
sides, living without attachments is kinda silly for that is componential of being human too, in
my opinion.

But, I'm open to a difference of opinion here . . .



.


Yes, Duhkha is a natural and realistic component of what it means to be human. I would not say Buddhism has a neutral acceptance of Duhkha at all - it is an understanding about their impermanence, the adverse consequences of how we act in regard to these and an objective and plan to overcome these.


.


The way I see it is that it all needs to be considered together - the 4 truths held by the spiritually noble with the first 1 combined with the impermanence of life and self. This allows me to say that "duhhka is just duhhka" and not be dismissive but only because you can recognise this stress / suffering as being a mere result of reality so by the middle way you can choose to not be so stressed by it and you can live and think in the "right ways" so reality has less duhkha - Where I draw the line is whether you (now or in future lives) can achieve enlightenment so there is no duhkha.




I get what you're saying here, but I was not clear in what I was really saying:

There is nothing noble about life. The truths we obtain via suffering/stress are not noble. The
suffering/stress as a medium towards enlightenment or new understanding or truth is in and of
itself not noble. I am wondering why Buddhism makes any attempt to valorize any component
of life anyways for if it is componential, then there is nothing about it that is transcendent (under-
stood as going beyond what it means to be human). Nobility as a category reflecting what it
means to be human does not have much use if we're acknowledging that suffering/stress are
states or conditions that come with being human!

This is why I'm kinda confused because I always thought Buddhism made little to no value claims
about reality so when I read "duhhka is just duhhka" while remembering that the "4 truths held by
the spiritually noble . . . ", I'm even more confused.


Understood. Yes, there is nothing noble about life, stress or suffering. That is not what being said. The nobility is in the person knowing the truths. This is why I phrased it as the 4 truths held by the spiritually noble. The Western view of Buddhism is often incomplete and affected by English denotion and misunderstood connotations
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Reply #49 posted 01/09/18 6:21pm

IanRG

^^ Further, as to value judgements, you had already rallied against the "true" in true happiness - Wait till we get to the value judgements in the Astangika-marga (Eightfold path) in the Madhyama-pratipadā (the Middle Way).

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