So, I voted for Brexit, mainly because of the EU's dreadful ability to show its muscle over the migrant crisis, which was, and still is, killing people daily. My main other beef was with immigration because my direct relatives are Thai and I have friends from many countries outside the EU. I wanted (still want) a fair immigration system for all, regardless of country of birth.

So far I have felt very let down by Brexit. The EU seems to be using its muscle to prevent the UK from having any meaningful negotiations, and seems determined to show other EU countries that leaving is not in their best interests. Truthfully I probably regret my vote to leave as it appears it will be in name only, and that change will not come as a result.

David Davis has now resigned, Boris should follow (though I have my doubts that he will) and Raab takes up the unenviable job of negotiating this mess for the PM. There are many, many questions about the future of the Conservatives and the shape that Brexit will take. So, what do those on the org think will happen? Will we ever leave? Will it be in 2019? Will May still be at the helm? Will Raab do a good job? Should Corbyn take a more decisive stance? etc...

Interested to hear your thoughts, as well as how our American, European, and anywhere else in the world, friends view Brexit from across the waters.

I wasn't allowed to vote in the referendum, but I would have voted remain. Two years later I am even more convinced about it. However I think that Brexit needs to go ahead and it would be a disaster for democracy if it didn't.

If politicians lied, vote them out. If there was ilegal activity, bring those responsible to court. But more people voted leave than remain.

And about what you refer to as "the European Union showing their muscle"... well, yes. One country is always going to be in a weaker position at negociating than 27 (isn't that the whole point of the EU?), even if the one country is Britain and it's coming home and there was an Empire once and you won the war and all of that... not to mention that the people negotiating fro Britain are absolute morons, of course.

Finally, I agree that the way the EU has conducted iself in the refugee crisis is shameful, but remember that the stance on immigration from certain parts of the Brexit was even more disgusting...

Boris has gone! A leadership challenge is surely on the cards - and all of this playing out as the most unpopular US President of my lifetime is due to fly into town next week to greet the PM. It's a full-on crisis now.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...s-44770847

deebee said:

Silvertongue7 said:

I wasn't allowed to vote in the referendum, but I would have voted remain. Two years later I am even more convinced about it. However I think that Brexit needs to go ahead and it would be a disaster for democracy if it didn't.

If politicians lied, vote them out. If there was ilegal activity, bring those responsible to court. But more people voted leave than remain.

And about what you refer to as "the European Union showing their muscle"... well, yes. One country is always going to be in a weaker position at negociating than 27 (isn't that the whole point of the EU?), even if the one country is Britain and it's coming home and there was an Empire once and you won the war and all of that... not to mention that the people negotiating fro Britain are absolute morons, of course.

Finally, I agree that the way the EU has conducted iself in the refugee crisis is shameful, but remember that the stance on immigration from certain parts of the Brexit was even more disgusting...

I think, for me, when I talk about the EU showing their muscle, what I mean is that had they chosen to flex them at different times then that might have influenced a different outcome. If the EU had tried to find a united solution to the refugee crisis before the referendum then my vote might well have been different. Instead they allowed each country to do their own thing leaving some countries with a huge influx of refugees and other countries barely helping at all (all whilst hundreds of people died).

If the EU had flexed their muscle and showed us what a great nation they were and joined in the 'remain' campaign, perhaps showing us what the money we were giving them was spent on, then maybe the result would have been different. But they didn't.

Instead, you are right, we have the worst negotiating team against a huge and powerful institution that does not want any other countries to leave. It has to get a good deal for itself, it's future depends on it. Therefore I don't blame them for flexing their muscles now.

To address immigration is difficult as everyone has different thoughts and ideas, some more racist and xenophobic than others. What I really didn't like about Brexit was the idea that so many voted 'Leave' primarily because of immigration concerns - in my limited experience that has not been the case, there were many other reasons for putting the tick in the 'leave' box.

deebee said:

Boris has gone! A leadership challenge is surely on the cards - and all of this playing out as the most unpopular US President of my lifetime is due to fly into town next week to greet the PM. It's a full-on crisis now.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...s-44770847

I know - great news! Get the popcorn ready, we're in for an interesting few weeks ahead

Silvertongue7 said:

deebee said:

Boris has gone! A leadership challenge is surely on the cards - and all of this playing out as the most unpopular US President of my lifetime is due to fly into town next week to greet the PM. It's a full-on crisis now.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...s-44770847

Great. I’m not a fan of TM, but if she’s replaced it will mean another turn to the right... I wonder whether David fucking Cameron is enjoying the mess he created and didn’t have the balls to see through

And here I agree. I think in twenty years David Cameron will be a hated figure for using the promise of a referendum to win the election, and then jumping ship when it didn't go his way.

To address your first point - personally, and from what I've heard today, I think Mrs May might just retain the leadership, just.

[Edited 7/9/18 10:44am]

maplenpg said:

Silvertongue7 said:

Silvertongue7 said:

maplenpg said:

I think, for me, when I talk about the EU showing their muscle, what I mean is that had they chosen to flex them at different times then that might have influenced a different outcome. If the EU had tried to find a united solution to the refugee crisis before the referendum then my vote might well have been different. Instead they allowed each country to do their own thing leaving some countries with a huge influx of refugees and other countries barely helping at all (all whilst hundreds of people died).

If the EU had flexed their muscle and showed us what a great nation they were and joined in the 'remain' campaign, perhaps showing us what the money we were giving them was spent on, then maybe the result would have been different. But they didn't.

Instead, you are right, we have the worst negotiating team against a huge and powerful institution that does not want any other countries to leave. It has to get a good deal for itself, it's future depends on it. Therefore I don't blame them for flexing their muscles now.

To address immigration is difficult as everyone has different thoughts and ideas, some more racist and xenophobic than others. What I really didn't like about Brexit was the idea that so many voted 'Leave' primarily because of immigration concerns - in my limited experience that has not been the case, there were many other reasons for putting the tick in the 'leave' box.

I broadly agree with what you’ve written here, particularly with the way the refugees crisis was (is being) handled. I do think, however, that anti immigration was a much more important drive behind Brexit than you say. I don’t know your background, but I am Spanish, living in the north of England. I was called in public a fucking immigrant that comes here to live off our fucking taxes. I was also told that I was one of the good immigrants, but Brexit was needed to keep the others out. My ex pointed at his parents that I was an immigrant, who replied ‘we’re fine with D being here, it’s all the Pakistanis that we don’t want’. My Japanese friend has been shouted at in the street on a regular basis in the last three years. My Spanish dentist friend was told by a patient that they wanted to see the English dentist, not her. And so on. I realise that this is anecdotal evidence, but it is quite a lot of anecdotal evidence in my relatively small social circle. Also, I come from Spain, a country most people here ‘like’. I wonder what it would be like if I was Eastern European...

Wow just wow.

More interesting perspectives and knowledge of our amazingly diverse org P&R.

DiminutiveRocker said:

Silvertongue7 said:

maplenpg said:

I think, for me, when I talk about the EU showing their muscle, what I mean is that had they chosen to flex them at different times then that might have influenced a different outcome. If the EU had tried to find a united solution to the refugee crisis before the referendum then my vote might well have been different. Instead they allowed each country to do their own thing leaving some countries with a huge influx of refugees and other countries barely helping at all (all whilst hundreds of people died).

If the EU had flexed their muscle and showed us what a great nation they were and joined in the 'remain' campaign, perhaps showing us what the money we were giving them was spent on, then maybe the result would have been different. But they didn't.

Instead, you are right, we have the worst negotiating team against a huge and powerful institution that does not want any other countries to leave. It has to get a good deal for itself, it's future depends on it. Therefore I don't blame them for flexing their muscles now.

To address immigration is difficult as everyone has different thoughts and ideas, some more racist and xenophobic than others. What I really didn't like about Brexit was the idea that so many voted 'Leave' primarily because of immigration concerns - in my limited experience that has not been the case, there were many other reasons for putting the tick in the 'leave' box.

I broadly agree with what you’ve written here, particularly with the way the refugees crisis was (is being) handled. I do think, however, that anti immigration was a much more important drive behind Brexit than you say. I don’t know your background, but I am Spanish, living in the north of England. I was called in public a fucking immigrant that comes here to live off our fucking taxes. I was also told that I was one of the good immigrants, but Brexit was needed to keep the others out. My ex pointed at his parents that I was an immigrant, who replied ‘we’re fine with D being here, it’s all the Pakistanis that we don’t want’. My Japanese friend has been shouted at in the street on a regular basis in the last three years. My Spanish dentist friend was told by a patient that they wanted to see the English dentist, not her. And so on. I realise that this is anecdotal evidence, but it is quite a lot of anecdotal evidence in my relatively small social circle. Also, I come from Spain, a country most people here ‘like’. I wonder what it would be like if I was Eastern European... [Edited 7/9/18 10:57am]

Thanks for this, it saddens me to the core. I grew up in a town not far from Birmingham which was very racially diverse, as was my school. Interestingly, even though I now live in a predominantly white part of rural Yorkshire, I find more tolerance here than I did there (and even now, when I visit family, I hear language that makes me feel ill going on in that area). As you say, people have a tendancy to class people as 'good' immigrants or 'bad' ones, depending not on their profession or on knowing them as a person, but based purely on the country they come from. My friend married a Tunisian over 25 years ago and he was very well received here, until the terror attacks in Tunisia, when suddenly people started viewing him with caution. My sister-in-law, who is Thai, is largely well-received, but then again her cooking would swing even the harshest critic!

Interesting times.

May is dead woman walking, but no one wants to take over just yet.

Davis stepped down because his job has essentially been undermined. I get than. But Boris has stepped down purely for leadership/political reasons. If he hadn't, after DD had, it would look like he actively supported May, when in reality, he's a stalking horse.

SquirrelMeat said:

Interesting times.

May is dead woman walking, but no one wants to take over just yet.

Davis stepped down because his job has essentially been undermined. I get than. But Boris has stepped down purely for leadership/political reasons. If he hadn't, after DD had, it would look like he actively supported May, when in reality, he's a stalking horse.

Lots of political activity across the pond these days woth regard to leadreship....

SquirrelMeat said:

It's very funny to see the doors fall off and the bonnet fly up from the clown car that is the UK government.

Silvertongue7 said:

maplenpg said:

I think, for me, when I talk about the EU showing their muscle, what I mean is that had they chosen to flex them at different times then that might have influenced a different outcome. If the EU had tried to find a united solution to the refugee crisis before the referendum then my vote might well have been different. Instead they allowed each country to do their own thing leaving some countries with a huge influx of refugees and other countries barely helping at all (all whilst hundreds of people died).

If the EU had flexed their muscle and showed us what a great nation they were and joined in the 'remain' campaign, perhaps showing us what the money we were giving them was spent on, then maybe the result would have been different. But they didn't.

Instead, you are right, we have the worst negotiating team against a huge and powerful institution that does not want any other countries to leave. It has to get a good deal for itself, it's future depends on it. Therefore I don't blame them for flexing their muscles now.

To address immigration is difficult as everyone has different thoughts and ideas, some more racist and xenophobic than others. What I really didn't like about Brexit was the idea that so many voted 'Leave' primarily because of immigration concerns - in my limited experience that has not been the case, there were many other reasons for putting the tick in the 'leave' box.

I broadly agree with what you’ve written here, particularly with the way the refugees crisis was (is being) handled. I do think, however, that anti immigration was a much more important drive behind Brexit than you say. I don’t know your background, but I am Spanish, living in the north of England. I was called in public a fucking immigrant that comes here to live off our fucking taxes. I was also told that I was one of the good immigrants, but Brexit was needed to keep the others out. My ex pointed at his parents that I was an immigrant, who replied ‘we’re fine with D being here, it’s all the Pakistanis that we don’t want’. My Japanese friend has been shouted at in the street on a regular basis in the last three years. My Spanish dentist friend was told by a patient that they wanted to see the English dentist, not her. And so on. I realise that this is anecdotal evidence, but it is quite a lot of anecdotal evidence in my relatively small social circle. Also, I come from Spain, a country most people here ‘like’. I wonder what it would be like if I was Eastern European... [Edited 7/9/18 10:57am]

Sadly, this is not an unusual experience. Brexit has legitimised racism and emboldened racists in England. While not everybody who voted for Brexit is racist, of course, it's probably true that every racist voted for Brexit.

Regarding the questions in the OP:

Will we ever leave?

Scotland will gain independence, whether you leave or not. The current shambles has made that inevitable. You probably will leave, though.

Will it be in 2019?

It should be on the 29th of March, 2019.

Will May still be at the helm?

Nope.

Will Raab do a good job?

He's a cartoon, Dickensian villain. He was a member of a private Facebook group that called for the ending of all council and social housing, and the return of the workhouse, a misogynist and even dismissed a disabled woman on live TV. Perhaps, if anything, he's over qualified.

Should Corbyn take a more decisive stance?

Corbyn is a waste of skin and air, but there are none in his party who are any better - such is the state of English politics.

Lianachan said:

Regarding the questions in the OP:

Will we ever leave?

Scotland will gain independence, whether you leave or not. The current shambles has made that inevitable. You probably will leave, though.

Do you think that if Scotland had won the vote for independence Brexit would have ever happened?

I kind of agree with Boris's reason for resigning, as explained in his letter to May. I originally liked the idea of Britain re-gaining their independence and ability to take back their own decisive power... But so far it really does seem like a non-Brexit disguised as a Brexit in that the UK still has to rely upon Brussels for most of their local decisions, which means slow responses to problems and delayed improvement in many areas of our lives. Sadly it seems like the only strong outcome of this cowardly Brexit is that people like myself (from outside the UK) will end up being badly affected, having to justify in order to maintain their residential status or even risking deportation despite living here for many years! Like the unbelieveable story of this lady, former mayor of a British town:

https://www.theguardian.c...ears-in-uk

[Edited 7/10/18 6:56am]

maplenpg said:

Lianachan said:

Regarding the questions in the OP:

Will we ever leave?

Scotland will gain independence, whether you leave or not. The current shambles has made that inevitable. You probably will leave, though.

Do you think that if Scotland had won the vote for independence Brexit would have ever happened?

It probably wouldn't have made any difference. Brexit is, and always has been, a Tory beauty contest - a stupid internal squabble that has escalated into the monster that will destroy the UK.

Surprised Michael Gove hasn't resigned. I reckon he's probably the only high ranking Leave person who hasn't just walked away from the catastrofuck they've created.

Maybe he's been too busy watching the BBC's extended coverage of the royal family enjoying the jingoistic sabre-rattling celebration of the glory days of Empire & WW2, and will get around to resigning shortly.

Lianachan said:

Surprised Michael Gove hasn't resigned. I reckon he's probably the only high ranking Leave person who hasn't just walked away from the catastrofuck they've created.

Maybe he's been too busy watching the BBC's extended coverage of the royal family enjoying the jingoistic sabre-rattling celebration of the glory days of Empire & WW2, and will get around to resigning shortly.

He's got his eyes on the prize. I hate Michael Gove - I know an ex-teacher who now has to work with him (he made a bigger catastrofuck of the education system than of Brexit IMO). I asked her to punch him in the face from me - so far she's restrained herself.

And the next two resign. What a horrible week to be PM. She still has to meet Trump yet who has openly supported Boris too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...s-44785797

maplenpg said:

maplenpg said:

maplenpg said:

Silvertongue7 said:

maplenpg said:

And the next two resign. What a horrible week to be PM. She still has to meet Trump yet who has openly supported Boris too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...s-44785797

Has she ever had a good week? I was talking to a friend a couple of weeks ago, saying that she should make a stand and fire Boris and a few others. It would have been a gamble, but it might have paid off. Too late now. I won’t miss her when she finally goes. But I can’t think of anyone in the Conservative Party that wouldn’t be worse than her, and whoever replaces her is going to take yet another turn to the right, so it will be even more shit than it currently is. Still blame David Fucking Cameron.

Agree with your whole post. In fact I think she should have got rid of Boris a while back. I was watching Jacob Rees Mogg on the news last and I thought to myself that he could be the worst thing that could happen to Britain in a long time if he takes charge.

Lianachan said:

Looks like Matthew Hancock is a splendid appointment to health secretary.

Wow... and I didn't think anyone could be worse than Cunt. My friend, who is a nurse, was practically orgasmic when he was made foreign secretary - maybe not so much now.