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Thread started 04/09/19 4:01pm

Ace

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Calling all Marxists


FULL DISCLOSURE:


I used to identify as a "Progressive". But there are too many crazy hypocrisies among that crowd now (see Dave Rubin's "Why I Left the Left" for some of them). I am not a "Conservative", as I support same-sex marriage, am pro-choice and anti-religion. I am not a Libertarian, because I believe that there are certain areas where we can't just leave the less-fortunate to "fend for themselves" - or hope that 'the churches, our neighbors and/or our friends' (-Ron Paul) will assist them.

So, what "am" I? I guess a "moderate" (for a lack of better descriptor)? shrug


Now that we have that out of the way, I'd be interested in hearing our Marxist friends here (and I know there are at least two) address the thoughts in this video:



If nothing else, this should be interesting. lol

"Acceptance, forgiveness, and love."
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Reply #1 posted 04/10/19 1:58am

NorthC

I think I'm in the same category as you when it comes to politics. I never understood why some of the "lefties" were so fascinated by communism. Even the man whose quote I use went to Russia and came back saying Stalin was okay.
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Reply #2 posted 04/10/19 3:12am

Ace

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NorthC said:

I think I'm in the same category as you when it comes to politics.


highfive

"Acceptance, forgiveness, and love."
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Reply #3 posted 04/10/19 2:48pm

onlyforaminute

many crazy hypocrisies among that crowd


Im finding that true across the board to any organization. Seems to be something near what the video is saying you posted.

I'm more moderate too.
Year of Return 2019
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Reply #4 posted 04/10/19 3:22pm

jaawwnn

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LOL, as if capitalism isn't also responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths, not to mention the bringing of the entire planet to its ecological knees. If i was Stalin I'd also be the actual one who defeated the Nazis, so I'd have that in my favour.

Anyway the only piece anyone will ever need on that intellectual titan

https://www.currentaffair...we-deserve
[Edited 4/10/19 15:38pm]
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Reply #5 posted 04/10/19 3:52pm

Ace

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onlyforaminute said:

many crazy hypocrisies among that crowd
Im finding that true across the board to any organization. Seems to be something near what the video is saying you posted. I'm more moderate too.


thumbs up!

"Acceptance, forgiveness, and love."
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Reply #6 posted 04/10/19 3:54pm

IanRG

Most of what most people hold as views are moderate. We are the by far the majority. But each of has some views that are extreme and they may a mix of extreme left, right, authoritarian, individualist, religious (including anti-religious), cultural etc. views.

.

Regional, national and world politics follows a cycle of increasing moderation and increasing extremism. Currently we are in increasing extremism phase. Normally this coincides with economic downturns. This time, it does not. It is as a result of large pockets of people that felt excluded during the more moderate period of the recent past.

.

The one consistency is there is a direct correlation between the consistency of a persons view with one particular ideology and our need to fear that person's views. Whether the person is a far right supremacist or from the far left, they always end of defending the indefensible to protect their ideology ahaead of people and hiding behind "At least my side did or did not do ..." arguments.

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Reply #7 posted 04/10/19 4:01pm

Ace

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jaawwnn said:

LOL, as if capitalism isn't also responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths, not to mention the bringing of the entire planet to its ecological knees. If i was Stalin I'd also be the actual one who defeated the Nazis, so I'd have that in my favour.


You don't think his contentions about modern-day Marxists are accurate?

Anyway the only piece anyone will ever need on that intellectual titan https://www.currentaffair...we-deserve


It seems that this fella (for one) begs to differ:

https://www.americanthink...tacks.html

"Acceptance, forgiveness, and love."
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Reply #8 posted 04/10/19 4:03pm

Ace

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IanRG said:

The one consistency is there is a direct correlation between the consistency of a persons view with one particular ideology and our need to fear that person's views. Whether the person is a far right supremacist or from the far left, they always end of defending the indefensible to protect their ideology ahaead of people and hiding behind "At least my side did or did not do ..." arguments.


Yes, Ian, that is a common refrain of Peterson - that adherence to ideologies is dangerous stuff.

"Acceptance, forgiveness, and love."
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Reply #9 posted 04/11/19 6:36am

jaawwnn

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Ace said:

jaawwnn said:

LOL, as if capitalism isn't also responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths, not to mention the bringing of the entire planet to its ecological knees. If i was Stalin I'd also be the actual one who defeated the Nazis, so I'd have that in my favour.


You don't think his contentions about modern-day Marxists are accurate?

If your contention with modern day marxists is that most people on every side can't or simply won't think longer than a pithy putdown on Twitter then I agree with you. If your contention with modern day marxists is Jordan Peterson blathering on about arrogance and strawmen arguments where marx is the same person as an authoritarian dictator one hundred years later then no, it's not accurate.

Anyway the only piece anyone will ever need on that intellectual titan https://www.currentaffair...we-deserve


It seems that this fella (for one) begs to differ:

https://www.americanthink...tacks.html

Nothing there addresses the underlying problem that Peterson is an unserious, anti-intellectual fraud who has nothing interesting, original or thoughtful to say about the world. I'll discuss issues with you if you like but not via the medium of posting Peterson videos and asking for a response to his vapid nonsense.

Maybe we can start a book club where we read both Marx and Adam Smith and discuss what we think of them? They're both worth taking seriously and it'd be a better use of our time than fighting about youtube celebrity and dad-replacement Jordan Peterson.

[Edited 4/11/19 6:41am]

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Reply #10 posted 04/11/19 6:58am

Ace

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jaawwnn said:

Ace said:


It seems that this fella (for one) begs to differ:

https://www.americanthink...tacks.html

Nothing there addresses the underlying problem that Peterson is an unserious, anti-intellectual fraud who has nothing interesting, original or thoughtful to say about the world. I'll discuss issues with you if you like but not via the medium of posting Peterson videos and asking for a response to his vapid nonsense.


Well, of course, there are many, many people (many intellectuals among them) that believe Peterson to be a very serious intellectual who has many interesting, original and thoughtful things to say about the world. It's been my experience that he has the radical left in such a tizzy because he puts the lie to their ideology. Tellingly, the rebuttals to his contentions are usually ad hominem smears. I'd prefer that they take on his ideas directly, but that seems to rarely happen.

I think his remarks in the video about modern-day Marxists are right on the money (no pun intended). I have a feeling you'll disagree.


Setting Stalin aside, would you care to take on directly what he says from 0:14 on?

"Acceptance, forgiveness, and love."
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Reply #11 posted 04/11/19 7:31am

jaawwnn

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Aside from the Stalin bits? You mean the personal attack he makes on anyone who identifies as a marxist? Or do you mean I should take anything he says about marxism in good faith? Genuine questions there.

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Reply #12 posted 04/11/19 7:37am

2freaky4church
1

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Ace, we already schooled you on Israel and now this.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #13 posted 04/11/19 7:47am

Ace

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jaawwnn said:

Aside from the Stalin bits? You mean the personal attack he makes on anyone who identifies as a marxist? Or do you mean I should take anything he says about marxism in good faith? Genuine questions there.


Personally, I wouldn't characterize it as an "attack". I'd say that it's more that he's expressing frustration at his (and my) belief that modern-day Marxists aren't really being honest with themselves.

I guess I mean that I'd be curious to hear you rebut what he says directly (i.e. not just ad hominem).


Please don't misunderstand my tone. What he says genuinely makes sense to me and I'm looking to see if anyone can poke holes in it.

"Acceptance, forgiveness, and love."
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Reply #14 posted 04/11/19 7:53am

Ace

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2freaky4church1 said:

Ace, we already schooled you on Israel and now this.


You seem to have an interesting definition of "schooled" (to you, this seems to mean 'Attempted to show you're wrong and - instead - just resorted to a bunch of lies, half-truths, and boilerplate radical-left talking points, all the while dodging some very direct questions posed there').


Maybe you'll have better luck in this thread? Go for it, freaky: Tell us why Peterson's wrong (taking into account, of course, the previous content of this thread).

This should be interesting.

popcorn

"Acceptance, forgiveness, and love."
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Reply #15 posted 04/11/19 7:54am

jaawwnn

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Ace said:

jaawwnn said:

Aside from the Stalin bits? You mean the personal attack he makes on anyone who identifies as a marxist? Or do you mean I should take anything he says about marxism in good faith? Genuine questions there.


Personally, I wouldn't characterize it as an "attack". I'd say that it's more that he's expressing frustration at his (and my) belief that modern-day Marxists aren't really being honest with themselves.

I guess I mean that I'd be curious to hear you rebut what he says directly (i.e. not just ad hominem).


Please don't misunderstand my tone. What he says genuinely makes sense to me and I'm looking to see if anyone can poke holes in it.


How can I rebut it and also put aside the Stalin bits when his whole argument is that all "Marxism" (this isn't even getting into marxism vs. communism vs. socialism) = Stalinism.

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Reply #16 posted 04/11/19 8:00am

2freaky4church
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First, he doesn't know what a Marxist is. There are several different kinds. There are statist Marxists, the ones we do not like. There are others like Rosa Luxemburg who were for worker run socieities where we get the original term Communism--from a commune. There are no gulags, no secret police, no cops, no NSA. Why do you think the left is always called anti American?

We are against the establishment. States are established powers. Any good Marxist rejects such a thing and works to undermine it. I myself am a Libertarian Socialist/Anarchist. My views are similar to stateless Marxists, accept we tend to favor free speech and culture more.

Most Marxists dwell too much on class alone and not culture.

Liberals are my class enemy as are conservatives.

Peterson uses the term Cultural Marxism which Wikipedia says is used by white nationalists.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #17 posted 04/11/19 8:03am

Ace

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jaawwnn said:

Ace said:


Personally, I wouldn't characterize it as an "attack". I'd say that it's more that he's expressing frustration at his (and my) belief that modern-day Marxists aren't really being honest with themselves.

I guess I mean that I'd be curious to hear you rebut what he says directly (i.e. not just ad hominem).


Please don't misunderstand my tone. What he says genuinely makes sense to me and I'm looking to see if anyone can poke holes in it.


How can I rebut it and also put aside the Stalin bits when his whole argument is that all "Marxism" (this isn't even getting into marxism vs. communism vs. socialism) = Stalinism.


I wouldn't say that that's his argument. I'd say that his argument is that the brutalities of what happened under Stalin are the inevitable end-result of Marxism.

Let's just go with that (for now, anyway). Maybe take on my statement above (beginning with "the brutalities") for now and then, perhaps, we can delve into other areas?

"Acceptance, forgiveness, and love."
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Reply #18 posted 04/11/19 8:05am

jaawwnn

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"Cultural Marxism" is 100% a racist conspiracy theory based on the idea that Frankfurt school of jewish scholars moved to America and, uh, made it the socialist paradise it is today via incredibly hard to read writings about culture rolleyes

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Reply #19 posted 04/11/19 8:11am

Ace

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2freaky4church1 said:

First, he doesn't know what a Marxist is. There are several different kinds. There are statist Marxists, the ones we do not like. There are others like Rosa Luxemburg who were for worker run socieities where we get the original term Communism--from a commune. There are no gulags, no secret police, no cops, no NSA. Why do you think the left is always called anti American?

We are against the establishment. States are established powers. Any good Marxist rejects such a thing and works to undermine it. I myself am a Libertarian Socialist/Anarchist. My views are similar to stateless Marxists, accept we tend to favor free speech and culture more.

Most Marxists dwell too much on class alone and not culture.

Liberals are my class enemy as are conservatives.

Peterson uses the term Cultural Marxism which Wikipedia says is used by white nationalists.


Oh, Peterson is very well-versed in all aspects of Marxism.


And to imply that he's a white nationalist is just a smear ('Some white nationalists have used the term "Cultural Marxism"; Peterson's used the term "Cultural Marxism"; ergo, Peterson is a white nationalist'). But you know this.


Can you point me to any examples of where Marxism has turned out hunky-dory?

"Acceptance, forgiveness, and love."
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Reply #20 posted 04/11/19 8:13am

jaawwnn

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Ace said:

jaawwnn said:

How can I rebut it and also put aside the Stalin bits when his whole argument is that all "Marxism" (this isn't even getting into marxism vs. communism vs. socialism) = Stalinism.


I wouldn't say that that's his argument. I'd say that his argument is that the brutalities of what happened under Stalin are the inevitable end-result of Marxism.

Let's just go with that (for now, anyway). Maybe take on my statement above (beginning with "the brutalities") for now and then, perhaps, we can delve into other areas?

Ok, well I say that is incorrect. The brutalities of Stalinism (and Mao-ism for that matter) are the same brutalities that every society who went through industrialisation went through over 150 years squeezed into about 50. Whether it be gulags, chattel slavery, colonies or children down the mines industrialisation has killed huge amounts of the poor every time, no society is innocent.

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Reply #21 posted 04/11/19 8:14am

Ace

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jaawwnn said:

"Cultural Marxism" is 100% a racist conspiracy theory based on the idea that Frankfurt school of jewish scholars moved to America and, uh, made it the socialist paradise it is today via incredibly hard to read writings about culture rolleyes


Well, obviously Peterson doesn't share your definition of "Cultural Marxism", as he's been an ardent critic of anti-Semitism and is, in fact, a defender of Israel.

"Acceptance, forgiveness, and love."
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Reply #22 posted 04/11/19 8:16am

Ace

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jaawwnn said:

Ace said:


I wouldn't say that that's his argument. I'd say that his argument is that the brutalities of what happened under Stalin are the inevitable end-result of Marxism.

Let's just go with that (for now, anyway). Maybe take on my statement above (beginning with "the brutalities") for now and then, perhaps, we can delve into other areas?

Ok, well I say that is incorrect. The brutalities of Stalinism (and Mao-ism for that matter) are the same brutalities that every society who went through industrialisation went through over 150 years squeezed into about 50. Whether it be gulags, chattel slavery, colonies or children down the mines industrialisation has killed huge amounts of the poor every time, no society is innocent.


This is an interesting contention and I will have to explore it when I have more time (I have to run, for now sad ).


I genuinely appreciate your civil tone and the gentlemanly (gentlewomanly?) debate. hug

"Acceptance, forgiveness, and love."
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Reply #23 posted 04/11/19 8:25am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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I don't really even know what "progressive' means honestly. I've always considerted myself a liberal as in personal liberties devoid of hardcore oldfashioned conservative "family values" Where it comes to running a government, well fair fiscally capitalism viable with a safety-net for the poor.


And I actally dont know of any "marxist" democrats other the fictional ones created by Fox News.

President Turd is the shit.
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Reply #24 posted 04/11/19 9:01am

jaawwnn

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At the end of the day there are no 100% free market countries and no 100% planned economy countries (except Walmart), it's about deciding what balance you think would be best.

The rebuttal to that hoary old joke that everyone's a socialist until you run out of other people's money to spend is that everyone is a capitalist until you run out of other people's assets to sell.

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Reply #25 posted 04/12/19 8:16am

2freaky4church
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USSR was State Capitalist by the way.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #26 posted 04/12/19 8:17am

2freaky4church
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Progressive means wanting bad things to go away, to progress into a decent society, what my Christians call the beloved community.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #27 posted 04/12/19 10:43am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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2freaky4church1 said:

Progressive means wanting bad things to go away, to progress into a decent society, what my Christians call the beloved community.




It’s always felt like running away. The right teased “the L word” and some liberals puckered their lips eyes moistened and ran away from it.

I’ll always think of “progressives” as cowards.
President Turd is the shit.
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Reply #28 posted 04/12/19 6:16pm

Ace

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2freaky4church1 said:

Progressive means wanting bad things to go away, to progress into a decent society


It used to mean that, yes (which is why I identified as one).

But there's not too much (for instance) that's "progressive" about supporting, say, cultures that subjugate women and persecute gays.

And then there's this:

"Acceptance, forgiveness, and love."
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Reply #29 posted 04/12/19 9:05pm

Ace

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jaawwnn said:

At the end of the day there are no 100% free market countries and no 100% planned economy countries (except Walmart), it's about deciding what balance you think would be best.

The rebuttal to that hoary old joke that everyone's a socialist until you run out of other people's money to spend is that everyone is a capitalist until you run out of other people's assets to sell.


Hi, jaawwnn:

Thought you might find the following interesting. Curious to hear your thoughts!

"Acceptance, forgiveness, and love."
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