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Thread started 05/09/19 5:32pm

benni

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Highly Controversial Topic: GA and Alabama pass anti-abortion bills, Ohio trying

In GA, the bill would criminalize abortions after 6 weeks. It also declares that “unborn children are a class of living, distinct person” that deserves “full legal recognition.” Thus, Georgia law must “recognize unborn children as natural persons”—not just for the purposes of abortion, but as a legal rule. This means that if a woman gets an abortion beyond 6 weeks of pregnancy, she can be tried for murder, with a maximum penalty of 99 years or the death sentence.

"An earlier Georgia law imposing criminal penalties for illegal abortions does not apply to women who self-terminate; the new measure, by contrast, conspicuously lacks such a limitation. It can, and would, be used to prosecute women." It doesn't just make a woman liable if she gets an abortion in state, but also liable if she travels out of the state to another state that still allows abortions. Not only can she be charged, at that point, but anyone that assisted her (gives her a ride out of state, loans her money to get an abortion, etc) can be charged with conspiracy to commit murder.

If you don't think GA will use this law to incarcerate women, especially women of color: https://www.nbcnews.com/n...ed-n372966

Kenlissia Jones was arrested in 2015 for murder because she took four pills, know to cause pregnancy loss, intentionally, to terminate her pregnancy. Where? In Georgia. They dropped those charges against her, when they realized they didn't have a leg to stand on, and charged her with misdemeanor possession of a dangerous drug. Except this dangerous drug is used to treat ulcers and to prevent excessive bleeding after giving birth. In 2015, here is what the District Attorney, Greg Edwards, said, "As the law currently stands in Georgia, criminal prosecution of a pregnant woman for her own actions against her unborn child does not seem permitted,” Edwards said in a statement about the case.

All of this is bad enough, but by changing the definition of fetus and bestowing all the rights and liberties upon the fetus, if a woman has a miscarriage, she can be investigated to see if she caused the death of the fetus. If it is found that through her own actions, or lack of actions, she was somehow at fault, she could be charged. I have had 4 miscarriages and a stillborn daughter. My miscarriages were due to my clotting disorder (as was the loss of my first daughter, and I almost lost my baby girl - my second daughter - under the same circumstances that I lost my Brianna). However, if they investigated my miscarriages, and they determined that I had missed my herparin shot or had taken it late, which resulted in the development of a clot in the umbilical cord cutting off vital nutrients to the baby, I could have been charged with negligent homicide, or possible manslaughter.

In Ohio, they are proposing a law that states abortions cannot be covered by insurance. Okay, fair enough. However, they are taking it a step further: The bill goes even further than abortion and seems to include things like morning-after-pills as well, because it also prohibits coverage of “drugs or devices used to prevent the implantation of a fertilized ovum.” So women who want to use an IUD as a form of birth control, would have to pay out of pocket. Okay. Now they go one step further.

In the event of an ectopic pregnancy (for the men who may not know - an ecotopic pregnancy is a pregnancy that occurs outside of the womb within the fallopian tubes - these types of pregnancies are fatal to women if they do not have them removed), Rep Baker states: "Part of that treatment would be removing the embryo from the fallopian tube and reinserting it in the uterous so that is not defined as an abortion under this bill."

Men, if you didn't know, there is no such surgery that can be performed to remove the embryo from the fallopian tube and reinserting the embryo into the uterous. It's not done because it can't be done. According to medical experts, the woman would have to wait until the ectopic pregnancy is about to kill her before she can have a life saving abortion.

These are the symptoms of an ectopic pregnancy:

  • Sharp or stabbing pain that may come and go and vary in intensity. (The pain may be in the pelvis, abdomen, or even the shoulder and neck due to blood from a ruptured ectopic pregnancy gathering up under the diaphragm).
  • Vaginal bleeding, heavier or lighter than your normal period
  • Gastrointestinal symptoms
  • Weakness, dizziness, or fainting

    And without treatment, death.
    It can also damage the fallopian tube, decreasing the chances of future pregnancies.



    Men, stay out of a woman's uterous. It is not yours to regulate. Amazing to me how the GOP says bans don't work when it comes to guns, but when banning immigrants, abortions, Muslims, gay marriages, trans military members, all of a sudden, bans work.

[Edited 5/9/19 17:34pm]

[Edited 5/9/19 17:36pm]

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Reply #1 posted 05/09/19 5:49pm

benni

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Even more about the Ohio law:


The bill also seems to target birth control, rather than just abortions. Miracle continues:

“Birth control pills, IUDs and other methods of birth control like that – the bill states that any birth control that could act to stop a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus is considered an abortion under this bill.”

Becker brushes that assertion aside, though, saying:

“When you get into the contraception and abortifacients, that’s clearly not my area of expertise, but I suppose, if it were true that what we typically know as the pill would be classified as an abortifacient, then I would imagine the drug manufacturers would reformulate it so it’s no longer an abortifacient and is strictly a contraceptive.”

This all comes just as Governor Mike DeWine (R) has signed a “heartbeat” bill into law, which means that abortions can be banned as early as six weeks. Many women are unaware of their pregnancies at that early stage. So, the bill actively bans most abortions in the state. House Bill 82 would finish the banning of reproductive health services altogether by targeting abortion.

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Reply #2 posted 05/09/19 6:27pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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6 weeks is a bit early. A woman could be 2 to 4 weeks late and not think much of it...i prefer roe v wade where it would need to be 20 to 25 weeks before a ban went into effect.


Several other elements also concern men...
[Edited 5/9/19 18:30pm]
Being a die-hard civil rights champion,
Being a die-hard libertarian,
Sometimes I have to defend
that which I find distasteful.
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Reply #3 posted 05/09/19 6:40pm

benni

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OnlyNDaUsa said:

6 weeks is a bit early. A woman could be 2 to 4 weeks late and not think much of it...i prefer roe v wade where it would need to be 20 to 25 weeks before a ban went into effect. Several other elements also concern men... [Edited 5/9/19 18:30pm]


6 weeks is EXTREMELY early. Many women are only just starting to suspect they may be pregnant at 6 weeks, and as you said, others may just think they are late for their period.

Some are saying they are trying to pass these draconian laws in order to force a Supreme Court ruling on Roe v Wade. And others are saying these laws aren't neccessarily about changing Roe v Wade (though that could be a byproduct of these laws) but rather to keep "women in their place", to exert that masculine control over women, because they see how more and more women are becoming powerful in politics (which was always a man's game), in corporations (demanding equal pay for equal work), and elsewhere in our society. Men are starting to feel threatened by women, and so they believe, erroneously or rightly, who knows, that women began to become less dependent upon men when abortion was legalised. The only way to put a woman back in the kitchen and keep her barefoot and pregnant, is to outlaw abortion.

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Reply #4 posted 05/09/19 6:40pm

poppys

benni said:

Even more about the Ohio law:


The bill also seems to target birth control, rather than just abortions. Miracle continues:

“Birth control pills, IUDs and other methods of birth control like that – the bill states that any birth control that could act to stop a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus is considered an abortion under this bill.”

Becker brushes that assertion aside, though, saying:

“When you get into the contraception and abortifacients, that’s clearly not my area of expertise, but I suppose, if it were true that what we typically know as the pill would be classified as an abortifacient, then I would imagine the drug manufacturers would reformulate it so it’s no longer an abortifacient and is strictly a contraceptive.”

This all comes just as Governor Mike DeWine (R) has signed a “heartbeat” bill into law, which means that abortions can be banned as early as six weeks. Many women are unaware of their pregnancies at that early stage. So, the bill actively bans most abortions in the state. House Bill 82 would finish the banning of reproductive health services altogether by targeting abortion.


Yes, I posted about this when he signed it. disbelief

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Reply #5 posted 05/09/19 6:45pm

benni

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poppys said:

benni said:

Even more about the Ohio law:


The bill also seems to target birth control, rather than just abortions. Miracle continues:

This all comes just as Governor Mike DeWine (R) has signed a “heartbeat” bill into law, which means that abortions can be banned as early as six weeks. Many women are unaware of their pregnancies at that early stage. So, the bill actively bans most abortions in the state. House Bill 82 would finish the banning of reproductive health services altogether by targeting abortion.


Yes, I posted about this when he signed it. disbelief


I've been in and out of P.org lately, and I'm sorry if I missed your thread! If I'd known there was one already started, I would have posted in there.

But this just really irked me. Especially, when it was pointed out to me that with my miscarriages, if I had done something or not done something that might have contributed, I could have been charged. I was devastated with each loss, and doctor's have said that with my condition, high pregnancy loss is to be expected, but I can't guarantee that I always took the shots right on time, or that I might not have missed one or two. I did work, and I had other responsibilities to meet, so it may not have .... and I guess because of my condition, I've always blamed myself for my losses anyway. But to experience those losses, that self-blame, and then to have to face a legal inquiry, and face possible charges on top of that???

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Reply #6 posted 05/09/19 6:52pm

13cjk13

The Handmaid's Tale is actually becoming a reality. I fucking HATE the right wing in this country. Fuck evangelicals and FUCK TRUMP.

"If we had had confidence the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."
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Reply #7 posted 05/09/19 6:52pm

poppys

benni said:

poppys said:


Yes, I posted about this when he signed it. disbelief


I've been in and out of P.org lately, and I'm sorry if I missed your thread! If I'd known there was one already started, I would have posted in there.

But this just really irked me. Especially, when it was pointed out to me that with my miscarriages, if I had done something or not done something that might have contributed, I could have been charged. I was devastated with each loss, and doctor's have said that with my condition, high pregnancy loss is to be expected, but I can't guarantee that I always took the shots right on time, or that I might not have missed one or two. I did work, and I had other responsibilities to meet, so it may not have .... and I guess because of my condition, I've always blamed myself for my losses anyway. But to experience those losses, that self-blame, and then to have to face a legal inquiry, and face possible charges on top of that???


I didn't start a thread, I forget where I dropped it. I'm originally from Ohio and found it shocking. It's a good topic, benni, although very frightening. I think about young women like my niece. Surely they can strike down that ridiculous "transfer" procedure regarding an ectopic. I know that is bullshit. How did it even get that far?

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Reply #8 posted 05/09/19 7:03pm

PennyPurple

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I don't see how these can hold up. There is R V W after all.


They just won't let it be. Always intruding on women's rights. Now they are gonna lock women up. Fuckers.

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Reply #9 posted 05/09/19 7:12pm

benni

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13cjk13 said:

The Handmaid's Tale is actually becoming a reality. I fucking HATE the right wing in this country. Fuck evangelicals and FUCK TRUMP.


I have not watched that show (or read the book) but I keep hearing others equate this situation to that. I'm going to have to get the book or watch the series. But I absolutely agree with everything you've said here.

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Reply #10 posted 05/09/19 7:16pm

benni

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poppys said:

benni said:


I've been in and out of P.org lately, and I'm sorry if I missed your thread! If I'd known there was one already started, I would have posted in there.

But this just really irked me. Especially, when it was pointed out to me that with my miscarriages, if I had done something or not done something that might have contributed, I could have been charged. I was devastated with each loss, and doctor's have said that with my condition, high pregnancy loss is to be expected, but I can't guarantee that I always took the shots right on time, or that I might not have missed one or two. I did work, and I had other responsibilities to meet, so it may not have .... and I guess because of my condition, I've always blamed myself for my losses anyway. But to experience those losses, that self-blame, and then to have to face a legal inquiry, and face possible charges on top of that???


I didn't start a thread, I forget where I dropped it. I'm originally from Ohio and found it shocking. It's a good topic, benni, although very frightening. I think about young women like my niece. Surely they can strike down that ridiculous "transfer" procedure regarding an ectopic. I know that is bullshit. How did it even get that far?


I keep thinking of my daughter. She's 15 now. She and I were discussing this earlier tonight and she told me, "Mom, if I was forced to have a pregnancy that I didn't want because I was raped or something, I would probably be depressed enough to kill myself." She later said, "Well, I wouldn't kill myself, but I know a lot of girls that would. I wouldn't have asked to get pregnant. I wouldn't even have asked the man to have sex with me. Why should I pay for the rest of my life for something I didn't want to begin with, that was forced on me, first by whoever raped me, and then by the government?"

If a 15 year old can figure that out, it seems that 60 year old men should be able to.

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Reply #11 posted 05/09/19 7:17pm

benni

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PennyPurple said:

I don't see how these can hold up. There is R V W after all.


They just won't let it be. Always intruding on women's rights. Now they are gonna lock women up. Fuckers.


But these laws will be taken to the Supreme Court. That is the only course of action at this point and with the majority of justices having been placed by Republican presidents, how long will we have the Roe v Wade to protect us?

Kavanaugh is the deciding vote. And the Republicans pushed Kavanaugh into that position, even after he'd been accused of rape, for exactly this purpose.

[Edited 5/9/19 19:18pm]

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Reply #12 posted 05/09/19 7:20pm

PennyPurple

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benni said:

PennyPurple said:

I don't see how these can hold up. There is R V W after all.


They just won't let it be. Always intruding on women's rights. Now they are gonna lock women up. Fuckers.


But these laws will be taken to the Supreme Court. That is the only course of action at this point and with the majority of justices having been placed by Republican presidents, how long will we have the Roe v Wade to protect us?

Kavanaugh is the deciding vote. And the Republicans pushed Kavanaugh into that position, even after he'd been accused of rape, for exactly this purpose.

[Edited 5/9/19 19:18pm]

Exactly and we are really screwed if something happens to Ginsburg. sad

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Reply #13 posted 05/09/19 7:21pm

benni

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So Alabama has something a little extra tacked on to their bill:
the Alabama abortion criminalization bill has an extra tacked on to the end of it wherein, if a woman reports being raped and they find the person she accused not guilty, SHE goes to jail, because it's declared a false rape accusation.

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Reply #14 posted 05/09/19 7:24pm

benni

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PennyPurple said:

benni said:


But these laws will be taken to the Supreme Court. That is the only course of action at this point and with the majority of justices having been placed by Republican presidents, how long will we have the Roe v Wade to protect us?

Kavanaugh is the deciding vote. And the Republicans pushed Kavanaugh into that position, even after he'd been accused of rape, for exactly this purpose.

[Edited 5/9/19 19:18pm]

Exactly and we are really screwed if something happens to Ginsburg. sad



We can't depend on Ginsburg, unfortunately. She is 86 years old. At her age, she could leave us at any time. We'd need to have an actual medical doctor with her 24/7, wrap her in bubble wrap so she doesn't fall and break a hip, and keep all people that even look like they might be sick away from her. I'm afraid she's not going to outlast Trump. sad

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Reply #15 posted 05/09/19 7:52pm

poppys

Ugh, I am stupified. WE ARE GOING BACKWARDS! It was hard enough when most of the doctors were all men, now this. And the way insurance companies (bean counters) control everything now too...

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Reply #16 posted 05/09/19 7:58pm

benni

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Reply #17 posted 05/09/19 8:02pm

benni

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I just found something interesting related to Kenlissia Jones. She was charged with "malice murder" for her abortion. She took 4 "abortion pills". The penalty, if they had not realized it was not against the law at that time? She faced life in prison or the death penalty.

So much for being the party of "pro life".

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Reply #18 posted 05/09/19 8:10pm

poppys

benni said:

I just found something interesting related to Kenlissia Jones. She was charged with "malice murder" for her abortion. She took 4 "abortion pills". The penalty, if they had not realized it was not against the law at that time? She faced life in prison or the death penalty.

So much for being the party of "pro life".


This is insanity. Along with your post above it.

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Reply #19 posted 05/09/19 8:12pm

benni

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poppys said:

benni said:

I just found something interesting related to Kenlissia Jones. She was charged with "malice murder" for her abortion. She took 4 "abortion pills". The penalty, if they had not realized it was not against the law at that time? She faced life in prison or the death penalty.

So much for being the party of "pro life".


This is insanity. Along with your post above it.



It is insanity.

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Reply #20 posted 05/09/19 8:41pm

PennyPurple

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poppys said:

Ugh, I am stupified. WE ARE GOING BACKWARDS! It was hard enough when most of the doctors were all men, now this. And the way insurance companies (bean counters) control everything now too...

We are moving backwards. Coat hangers will no longer be a thing of the past.

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Reply #21 posted 05/10/19 4:04am

DiminutiveRock
er

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PennyPurple said:

poppys said:

Ugh, I am stupified. WE ARE GOING BACKWARDS! It was hard enough when most of the doctors were all men, now this. And the way insurance companies (bean counters) control everything now too...

We are moving backwards. Coat hangers will no longer be a thing of the past.

Jesus, this is The Handmaid's Tale. My God, wtf is happening? neutral

"'Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.'' - Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #22 posted 05/10/19 5:45am

2elijah

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13cjk13 said:

The Handmaid's Tale is actually becoming a reality. I fucking HATE the right wing in this country. Fuck evangelicals and FUCK TRUMP.


Controlled by insecure men. These laws go a lot deeper than that too. Why all of a sudden do these right-wingers, mostly men, want these laws in effect? They have no business telling a woman what she can or cannot do with her body. Yet they are the first ones to degrade poor women who end up pregnant. This will cause illegal and dangerous abortions. More women moving out of states with these laws, and secret safe havens to protect these women who want abortions. That POS in office said a while ago women should be punished for having abortions.

If they want to go that route then they should have laws to punish men who impregnate women outside their marriage. Laws to protect women to have a right to deny sex from their husbands/ boyfriends.

Often times some contraceptives don’t prevent pregnancy or a condom breaks. Usually it takes 4 to 6 wks for a woman to find out she’s pregnant, even though she may have taken preventive steps. So now she can’t get an abortion, is left with an unwanted/unprepared pregnancy. This will have an economic impact on many women, especially single women, and their work lifestyles, who end up pregnant unexpectedly. Daycare is extremely expensive just for one child. Many couples can’t afford the cost of daycare for more than one. Will these righties who want these laws in effect, pay to raise these unwanted or unexpected pregnancies?
[Edited 5/10/19 5:53am]
The abortion ban issue...any relation to 2045 or pre-1848?
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Reply #23 posted 05/10/19 5:48am

2elijah

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DiminutiveRocker said:



PennyPurple said:




poppys said:


Ugh, I am stupified. WE ARE GOING BACKWARDS! It was hard enough when most of the doctors were all men, now this. And the way insurance companies (bean counters) control everything now too...



We are moving backwards. Coat hangers will no longer be a thing of the past.




Jesus, this is The Handmaid's Tale. My God, wtf is happening? neutral


Not if women band together in masses to get those laws overturned. We need to get some of those folks voted out of Congress, and a president that’s actually human. We need a massive womens’ movement, and more women elected.
The abortion ban issue...any relation to 2045 or pre-1848?
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Reply #24 posted 05/10/19 5:48am

Empress

benni said:

13cjk13 said:

The Handmaid's Tale is actually becoming a reality. I fucking HATE the right wing in this country. Fuck evangelicals and FUCK TRUMP.


I have not watched that show (or read the book) but I keep hearing others equate this situation to that. I'm going to have to get the book or watch the series. But I absolutely agree with everything you've said here.

Just read the book. The series has gone way past what the book intended. The book is a must read.

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Reply #25 posted 05/10/19 5:54am

2elijah

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Empress said:



benni said:




13cjk13 said:


The Handmaid's Tale is actually becoming a reality. I fucking HATE the right wing in this country. Fuck evangelicals and FUCK TRUMP.




I have not watched that show (or read the book) but I keep hearing others equate this situation to that. I'm going to have to get the book or watch the series. But I absolutely agree with everything you've said here.



Just read the book. The series has gone way past what the book intended. The book is a must read.


I watched the series. It’s extreme abuse towards women, in a society controlled by disturbed men. It’s slavery and forced births. That’s what these anti-abortion laws will be like.
[Edited 5/10/19 5:56am]
The abortion ban issue...any relation to 2045 or pre-1848?
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Reply #26 posted 05/10/19 6:03am

poppys

DiminutiveRocker said:

PennyPurple said:

We are moving backwards. Coat hangers will no longer be a thing of the past.

Jesus, this is The Handmaid's Tale. My God, wtf is happening? neutral

It really is. I read the book years ago and never even considered it would be so relevant in my lifetime, or ever.

Before 1920, when the surgery for ectopic pregnancy was introduced, ALL woman who were unfortunate enough to have a fertilized egg lodged in their fallopian tube DIED. No exceptions. It was a lifesaving operation for countless women. It was a huge move forward for women, the difference between life and death.

Now politicians want to legislate that it is some kind of actual pregnancy where the egg can be saved? Because of some stupid "pro life" bullshit? More women will be put in serious danger. The fallopian tube is a tiny passage. When the growing egg bursts the tube, you're done. It happens very quickly.

The other side of that is - it is cruel to tell women they can save the embryo when they can't. A woman with false information who may wait for that possibility could easily die.

We've been having a lot of bad news lately but this is the worst.

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Reply #27 posted 05/10/19 6:17am

benni

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In the Kenlissia Jones case, here is the DA's press release statement:


http://ftpcontent4.worldn...102015.pdf

Please note that he quotes precedent that the actions she undertook was not illegal because the fetus was not a living human being as the laws currently stood. This was 4 years ago, people. They've been working on changing that law as soon as they felt they had a chance to do so. They wanted to make it a charge of murder against women who take medications that induce abortions.

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Reply #28 posted 05/10/19 6:22am

djThunderfunk

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OnlyNDaUsa said:

6 weeks is a bit early. A woman could be 2 to 4 weeks late and not think much of it...i prefer roe v wade where it would need to be 20 to 25 weeks before a ban went into effect. Several other elements also concern men... [Edited 5/9/19 18:30pm]


Why do abortion laws have to be extreme? Georgia limits to 6 weeks while New York allows partial birth abortion.

Extreme and extreme.

Seems like these laws are designed to keep us fighting.

"I've made up my mind. Don't try to confuse me with the facts." - Harry J. Anslinger
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Reply #29 posted 05/10/19 8:25am

2004Fan

Gloria Steinem said years ago "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."
I am here! Where R U?! Gotta broken heart again...
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