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Thread started 04/26/17 6:17pm

PennyPurple

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The Rise Of Prince Book Club

2 TAKE PART IN THE BOOK CLUB YOU MUST HAVE/READ THE BOOK.
PLEASE FOLLOW THE DIRECTIVE OF THE BOOK CLUB OP
STAY ON TOPIC AND PLEASE HELP TO MAKE IT AN ENJOYABLE EXPERIENCE.
THERE ARE ENOUGH AND HAVE BEEN ENOUGH THREADS TO DISCUSS THINGS EXTENSIVELY.

[For Legal Reasons: NO POSTING OF IMAGES OR PICTURES OR CONTENTS FROM THE BOOK, posting the front cover of the book is okay. THE ORG DOES NOT HAVE PERMISSION TO REPRODUCE THE BOOK OR ANY OF ITS CONTENTS - anyone caught doing so shall be dealt with accordingly - luv4u]



[No flaming, baiting, flinging poo of any sort. Discussion to be held in a civil manner. Remember all rules of the org apply. - luv4u]
*******************

rise-of-prince.jpg?w=500

Ok this is the official book club thread for The Rise of Prince 1958-1988 by Alex Hahn & Laura Tiebert.

.

Although it is not the 27th yet where I live, it's the 27th somewhere. wink

.

I thought we would start with Chapter 1, and do the Prologue & Forward at the end. The Chapters seem pretty short.

.

Chapter 1 Pages 48-57

Prince stayed in MN unlike Bob Dylan & became the States favorite son.

“I will always live in MN it’s so cold it keeps the bad people out” ~ Prince

Great Great Grandfather was a slaveholder who married a Cherokee woman (name unknown)

.

Great Grandfather Edward, became a traveling minister, married Emma Hardy

.

Grandfather Clarence became a farmer, married Carrie Jenkins

.

Father John Louis Nelson married Vivian Howard gave birth to Sharon, Lorna, Norrine & John Rodgers, Jr. & had a dog named Prince. Formed a Jazz Trio named Prince Rogers Nelson.

.

Divorced Vivian

Immediately Marries Mattie Shaw 10 months later gives birth to Prince Rogers Nelson, two years later gave birth to Tyka.

.

Mattie Shaw was a twin and they are believed to have been the 1st set of black twins born on the Northside. Mattie moved to Missouri where she married Alfred Jackson, Sr. & Alfred JR was born. They separated and Mattie returned to MN where she became an amateur jazz singer and where she met John Nelson and married.

.

In this chapter it states that John L Nelson was left without any parents before his 18th Birthday, his mother died, but it doesn’t say if his father died or just never had contact after the divorce from Carrie Jenkins. ??

.

So far in the story these siblings to Prince have been born: Sharon, Lorna, Norrine & John, Jr., Alfred, Jr., Prince, Tyka.

---------------------------------------

Did John L Nelson's father die before John was 18 or just did not participate in John's life?

.

It seems both of Prince's parents liked to dress stylish. biggrin

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Reply #1 posted 04/26/17 6:29pm

dystopiandance
party

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Usually these first chapters with family backgrounds, etc. are kind of a slog to get through (I read a lot of rock bios, hahaha), but I found this one fascinating: many of the details on John Nelson become very important later in Prince's life, especially the legacy of infidelity and the origins of his surname (which Prince basically came out and said was one of the reasons for his name change in the '90s).

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Reply #2 posted 04/26/17 8:18pm

AlexHahn

dystopiandanceparty said:

Usually these first chapters with family backgrounds, etc. are kind of a slog to get through (I read a lot of rock bios, hahaha), but I found this one fascinating: many of the details on John Nelson become very important later in Prince's life, especially the legacy of infidelity and the origins of his surname (which Prince basically came out and said was one of the reasons for his name change in the '90s).



Laura and I are honored that this book club is taking place and would be happy to participate and kick things around.

This chapter was in many ways the most fascinating to write. We did a lot of genealogical research and examined documents. This chapter was the most time-consuming by many a factor.

As far as what happened with John's dad, Clarence, the records indicate that by the time John was three, John and his mom Carrie were living with an entirely different man. That is the last we hear of Clarence. Then Carrie, John, and other family members, including Olivia Nelson, with whom Prince will eventually live for a bit, leave Louisiana for Minneapolis. So while we don't know for sure, it sounds like John's relationship with his dad never resumed.
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Reply #3 posted 04/26/17 8:30pm

Freeyourself

Bought the book at Fetus this weekend. Will Read Chapter 1 and 2 tonight. Not sure how often I'll be able to comment but will participate when able. Thanks for starting the thread.

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Reply #4 posted 04/26/17 10:13pm

moonsister

I'm looking forward to this. Yay authors! dancing jig
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Reply #5 posted 04/26/17 10:22pm

LoriJ

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dystopiandanceparty said:

Usually these first chapters with family backgrounds, etc. are kind of a slog to get through (I read a lot of rock bios, hahaha), but I found this one fascinating: many of the details on John Nelson become very important later in Prince's life, especially the legacy of infidelity and the origins of his surname (which Prince basically came out and said w

as one of the reasons for his name change in the '90s).

i AGREE! i found the heritage /family tree information very interesting.

It was well written. It didn't make your eyes glaze over by beng bogged down with minutia.

I love you baby, just not like I love this guitar.~Prince~
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Reply #6 posted 04/26/17 10:27pm

DD55

PennyPurple said:


*******************

Ok this is the official book club thread for The Rise of Prince 1958-1988 by Alex Hahn & Laura Tiebert.

.

Although it is not the 27th yet where I live, it's the 27th somewhere. wink

.

I thought we would start with Chapter 1, and do the Prologue & Forward at the end. The Chapters seem pretty short.

.

Chapter 1 Pages 48-57

Prince stayed in MN unlike Bob Dylan & became the States favorite son.

“I will always live in MN it’s so cold it keeps the bad people out” ~ Prince

Great Great Grandfather was a slaveholder who married a Cherokee woman (name unknown)

.

Great Grandfather Edward, became a traveling minister, married Emma Hardy

.

Grandfather Clarence became a farmer, married Carrie Jenkins

.

Father John Louis Nelson married Vivian Howard gave birth to Sharon, Lorna, Norrine & John Rodgers, Jr. & had a dog named Prince. Formed a Jazz Trio named Prince Rogers Nelson.

.

Divorced Vivian

Immediately Marries Mattie Shaw 10 months later gives birth to Prince Rogers Nelson, two years later gave birth to Tyka.

.

Mattie Shaw was a twin and they are believed to have been the 1st set of black twins born on the Northside. Mattie moved to Missouri where she married Alfred Jackson, Sr. & Alfred JR was born. They separated and Mattie returned to MN where she became an amateur jazz singer and where she met John Nelson and married.

.

In this chapter it states that John L Nelson was left without any parents before his 18th Birthday, his mother died, but it doesn’t say if his father died or just never had contact after the divorce from Carrie Jenkins. ??

.

So far in the story these siblings to Prince have been born: Sharon, Lorna, Norrine & John, Jr., Alfred, Jr., Prince, Tyka.

---------------------------------------

Did John L Nelson's father die before John was 18 or just did not participate in John's life?

.

It seems both of Prince's parents liked to dress stylish. biggrin

Are we saying that Prince's great great grandfather was white and his great great grandmother was Native American? (sorry if I got that wrong, I'm really tired)

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Reply #7 posted 04/26/17 10:33pm

DD55

DD55 said:

PennyPurple said:



Ok this is the official book club thread for The Rise of Prince 1958-1988 by Alex Hahn & Laura Tiebert.

.

Although it is not the 27th yet where I live, it's the 27th somewhere. wink

.

I thought we would start with Chapter 1, and do the Prologue & Forward at the end. The Chapters seem pretty short.

.

Chapter 1 Pages 48-57

---------------------------------------

Did John L Nelson's father die before John was 18 or just did not participate in John's life?

.

It seems both of Prince's parents liked to dress stylish. biggrin

Are we saying that Prince's great great grandfather was white and his great great grandmother was Native American? (sorry if I got that wrong, I'm really tired)

Sorry one more question. Was all this genealogy information collected / compiled from a professional genealogist? The twist and turns of genealogy can be very tricky. Are there documents to back it up? (Not suggesting it's wrong, just from my experience with genealogy, it is never in a straignt line, there are always twists and turns, name changes, etc. stuff in church documents and such that you would never expect.)

Can a diagram/tree be posted? Alex?

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Reply #8 posted 04/27/17 1:40am

BartVanHemelen

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DD55 said:

DD55 said:

Are we saying that Prince's great great grandfather was white and his great great grandmother was Native American? (sorry if I got that wrong, I'm really tired)

Sorry one more question. Was all this genealogy information collected / compiled from a professional genealogist? The twist and turns of genealogy can be very tricky. Are there documents to back it up? (Not suggesting it's wrong, just from my experience with genealogy, it is never in a straignt line, there are always twists and turns, name changes, etc. stuff in church documents and such that you would never expect.)

Can a diagram/tree be posted? Alex?

.

Please quote only the relevant parts. You've now got two consecutive posts quoting the entire first post, despite only a handful of lines being relevant. Also, instead of quoting your own post, simply edit the existing one.

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for
your use. All rights reserved.
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Reply #9 posted 04/27/17 2:29am

MMJas

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I will try to participate. smile

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Reply #10 posted 04/27/17 4:27am

PennyPurple

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AlexHahn said:

dystopiandanceparty said:

Usually these first chapters with family backgrounds, etc. are kind of a slog to get through (I read a lot of rock bios, hahaha), but I found this one fascinating: many of the details on John Nelson become very important later in Prince's life, especially the legacy of infidelity and the origins of his surname (which Prince basically came out and said was one of the reasons for his name change in the '90s).

Laura and I are honored that this book club is taking place and would be happy to participate and kick things around. This chapter was in many ways the most fascinating to write. We did a lot of genealogical research and examined documents. This chapter was the most time-consuming by many a factor. As far as what happened with John's dad, Clarence, the records indicate that by the time John was three, John and his mom Carrie were living with an entirely different man. That is the last we hear of Clarence. Then Carrie, John, and other family members, including Olivia Nelson, with whom Prince will eventually live for a bit, leave Louisiana for Minneapolis. So while we don't know for sure, it sounds like John's relationship with his dad never resumed.

Thank you for explaining about Clarence & thank you for participating.

.

I find it fascinating how the divorces and other spouses are passed down thru the generations.

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Reply #11 posted 04/27/17 4:32am

PennyPurple

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DD55 said:

Are we saying that Prince's great great grandfather was white and his great great grandmother was Native American? (sorry if I got that wrong, I'm really tired)

It looks that way to me.

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Reply #12 posted 04/27/17 4:36am

PennyPurple

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BartVanHemelen said:

.

Please quote only the relevant parts. You've now got two consecutive posts quoting the entire first post, despite only a handful of lines being relevant. Also, instead of quoting your own post, simply edit the existing one.

Please don't come on my thread bossing people around and stick to the topic of the book please.

.

Post #8 and it's already starting. rolleyes

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Reply #13 posted 04/27/17 4:49am

Adorecream

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I reckon his ancestors on the Nelson side were Black or at least mulattoes going right back.

A year of two ago someone posted a link to a site called geni, which showed so called photos of Prince's great grandfather Edward Nelson and his Grandfather Clarence Nelson. The photos showed 2 white men (Clearly white, not even Quadroons and Octoroons). Later on it was revealed these photos were a hoax and had been stolen from a genealogical site about an English American family that was White.

.

Also the so called photo of Edward Nelson showed a white Union Army Soldier and this did not fit with Edward Nelsons 1863 birth date, the photo showed a man in his mid 20s, meaning it was a generation further back anyway (The man in photo would have been born around 1840) Edward Nelson would have been that age around 1885/90.

.

However this hoax has persisted, the names and dates were real the photos completely fake. John Nelson in some book said that the place in Louisiana he came from, had the church burnt down by racists in the 1950s and the details were lost.

.

I am surprised that Mattie Shaw was born in MPLS as I read Mattie Della Shaw was born to Louise Bunnell (b1899) and Frank Shaw in the South. Both of them were very light skinned, but the children of slaves (Most likely Mulatto or Quadroon).

Sign o the Times - 30 years old this month.
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Reply #14 posted 04/27/17 5:07am

laurarichardso
n

PennyPurple said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

Please quote only the relevant parts. You've now got two consecutive posts quoting the entire first post, despite only a handful of lines being relevant. Also, instead of quoting your own post, simply edit the existing one.

Please don't come on my thread bossing people around and stick to the topic of the book please.

.

Post #8 and it's already starting. rolleyes

SNIP - OF4S

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Reply #15 posted 04/27/17 5:31am

bsprout

I am enjoying reading this book. The first chapter is very interesting; apart from learning about Prince's ancestors, who themselves have an interesting story, I learned about other things I had never heard of, such as the Great Migration in the U.S. While reading this chapter I felt an undercurrent of sadness for these families and the hardships they had to endure. For a little bit it made me happy to read that the families found joy in playing music and singing together. When John Nelson leaves Vivian and their 4 teenaged kids for another woman (Prince's mom), repeating the pattern his father had set, I was struck by this coldhearted and selfish move.
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Reply #16 posted 04/27/17 5:52am

nelcp777

bsprout said:

I am enjoying reading this book. The first chapter is very interesting; apart from learning about Prince's ancestors, who themselves have an interesting story, I learned about other things I had never heard of, such as the Great Migration in the U.S. While reading this chapter I felt an undercurrent of sadness for these families and the hardships they had to endure. For a little bit it made me happy to read that the families found joy in playing music and singing together. When John Nelson leaves Vivian and their 4 teenaged kids for another woman (Prince's mom), repeating the pattern his father had set, I was struck by this coldhearted and selfish move.

I agree with you completely.

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Reply #17 posted 04/27/17 5:57am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

Adorecream said:

I reckon his ancestors on the Nelson side were Black or at least mulattoes going right back.

.

I am surprised that Mattie Shaw was born in MPLS as I read Mattie Della Shaw was born to Louise Bunnell (b1899) and Frank Shaw in the South. Both of them were very light skinned, but the children of slaves (Most likely Mulatto or Quadroon).

Because you are hip to these terms, I'm going to pull from mestizaje catagories

If Prince's great great grandfather was white and his great great grandmother was Native American

.

Great great grandfather -(Nelson ie English)

Great grandfather -(Mestizo 1/2 Native 1/2 English)

Grand father -(Pardo (fem. parda) – a person of mixed white European, Native American Indian and African Black ancestry
Father -(multiracial)

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the matter with your world
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Reply #18 posted 04/27/17 11:31am

PennyPurple

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Prince's maternal grandparents.

.

Frank Shaw of Louisiana who relocated to Iowa, where he married Lucille Barnell (also from Louisiana) & they eventually moved north to MN.

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Reply #19 posted 04/27/17 4:51pm

LauraTiebert

Wanted to pop in and say hi and thanks for doing this book group!

Alex did the research on this chapter, and when the pattern of abandonment surfaced in John Nelson's family, we were both pretty stunned, since it was the same sad story playing out time and again. We also were riveted by John L. Nelson himself. He is quite the compelling and complex character, and we could have written another couple of chapters on him alone, but we forced ourselves back to the subject at hand.

As a woman, I have to say, the abandonment issue is hard to stomach. Think back to those days, when career opportunities were few for women. They likely received modest monetary support and were left in a desperate economic situation. Imagine Mattie's relief when Haywood appeared on the scene ...

[Edited 4/27/17 16:53pm]

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Reply #20 posted 04/27/17 5:10pm

PennyPurple

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LauraTiebert said:

Wanted to pop in and say hi and thanks for doing this book group!

Alex did the research on this chapter, and when the pattern of abandonment surfaced in John Nelson's family, we were both pretty stunned, since it was the same sad story playing out time and again. We also were riveted by John L. Nelson himself. He is quite the compelling and complex character, and we could have written another couple of chapters on him alone, but we forced ourselves back to the subject at hand.

As a woman, I have to say, the abandonment issue is hard to stomach. Think back to those days, when career opportunities were few for women. They likely received modest monetary support and were left in a desperate economic situation. Imagine Mattie's relief when Haywood appeared on the scene ...

[Edited 4/27/17 16:53pm]

If the women and kids got support at all. Maybe that's why Mattie felt compelled to marry. I'm still wondering if Mattie raised Alfred, Jr.?

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Reply #21 posted 04/27/17 5:31pm

Marrk

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PennyPurple said:

[For Legal Reasons: NO POSTING OF IMAGES OR PICTURES OR CONTENTS FROM THE BOOK, posting the front cover of the book is okay. THE ORG DOES NOT HAVE PERMISSION TO REPRODUCE THE BOOK OR ANY OF ITS CONTENTS - anyone caught doing so shall be dealt with accordingly - luv4u]



[No flaming, baiting, flinging poo of any sort. Discussion to be held in a civil manner. Remember all rules of the org apply. - luv4u]
*******************

After 'Possessed'? OK.. I'll bite my lip. Ouch! Is that blood? Not flinging poo, just not keen.


Do carry on.

Yeah, we'll, we'll try to imagine what silence looks like.
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Reply #22 posted 04/27/17 6:13pm

bonatoc

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PennyPurple said:

...

.

Father John Louis Nelson married Vivian Howard gave birth to Sharon, Lorna, Norrine & John Rodgers, Jr. & had a dog named Prince. Formed a Jazz Trio named Prince Rogers Nelson.

.

...


Africa, Cap'n Crunch, Norma Jean, Sex and Cheerio's
Play my record double speed, feel the climax fit 4 a king
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Reply #23 posted 04/27/17 6:18pm

bsprout

LauraTiebert said:

Wanted to pop in and say hi and thanks for doing this book group!



Alex did the research on this chapter, and when the pattern of abandonment surfaced in John Nelson's family, we were both pretty stunned, since it was the same sad story playing out time and again. We also were riveted by John L. Nelson himself. He is quite the compelling and complex character, and we could have written another couple of chapters on him alone, but we forced ourselves back to the subject at hand.



As a woman, I have to say, the abandonment issue is hard to stomach. Think back to those days, when career opportunities were few for women. They likely received modest monetary support and were left in a desperate economic situation. Imagine Mattie's relief when Haywood appeared on the scene ...

[Edited 4/27/17 16:53pm]


Hi, that was my first thought as well when I read that John Nelson left her.
How would she support herself in those days alone with 4 kids? It was very disturbing to read.
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Reply #24 posted 04/27/17 6:33pm

bsprout

PennyPurple said:




If the women and kids got support at all. Maybe that's why Mattie felt compelled to marry. I'm still wondering if Mattie raised Alfred, Jr.?


Interesting. I wondered about that, too.
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Reply #25 posted 04/27/17 6:39pm

803

Btw...

Don't know how many of you know that prince was not the originator of the saying that Minnesota was so cold that it kept the bad people out...it used to be a common saying in the area back when he was a young kid and it has a racial meaning...

Im sure that prince knew exactly what he was saying...
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Reply #26 posted 04/27/17 7:55pm

PennyPurple

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Chapter 2 Dandelions Pages 58-65

Prince’s nickname was Skipper.

.

Tyka was born.

.

John L Nelson’s piano was off limits to Prince. Prince revered his father.

.

John and Mattie started having marital problems in part because John was frequantly out of town do to gigs with his band and not arriving home until early morning hours from gigs during the week. John moved out of the home, but the piano stayed and 7 yr old Prince could play when ever he liked.

.

Prince became friends with a classmate Terry Jackson. Terry also noticed that among people Prince didn’t know very well he was shy & almost meek. But among friends he was talkative, playful, and like to pull pranks. Also noted, Prince had multiple personality traits that helped him achieve his goal in many different situations.

.

Prince was free to visit his father when ever he wanted, but his father was often on the road and did supply Prince with allowance.

.

Mattie again got married to Hayward Baker who failed to connect with his step children. Hayward often locked Prince in a room as punishment, another form of punishment was to have him pick dandelions in the yard which isolated Prince from his friends and music.

.

Prince and his friend Terry were able to attend a James Brown concert where Prince jumped on stage and started dancing the mashed potato. A stage hand removed Prince peacefully and Prince was back with his friends to enjoy the rest of the show, he was only 10.

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Reply #27 posted 04/27/17 9:52pm

LoriJ

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Chapter 2

I was quite surprised to learn that his step father was the one who locked him in the closet.

On The Larry King interview when asked about his relatioship with his father, he said he was strict.

I'm one year older than Prince, for our geneneration spanking was the norm. and for teens, especially males, things could get rough.

I do realize the emotional abuse by his biological father is just as bad as physical. The not letting him touch the piano, the abandonment etc.

It's very sad that there was not a loving father figure in his life.

I love you baby, just not like I love this guitar.~Prince~
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Reply #28 posted 04/28/17 12:59am

MMJas

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803 said:

Btw... Don't know how many of you know that prince was not the originator of the saying that Minnesota was so cold that it kept the bad people out...it used to be a common saying in the area back when he was a young kid and it has a racial meaning... Im sure that prince knew exactly what he was saying...

That's interesting. Care to elaborate?

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Reply #29 posted 04/28/17 5:18am

bsprout

Ch 2. Hayward Baker's abuse of Prince was disturbing and difficult to read about. I had always read that Prince didn't get along with his stepfather and moved out at 12, but I thought it was because of physical abuse. I didn't realize that the abuse was also emotional. It seems like he was jealous/resentful of Prince. Reading about Prince having to pick dandelions for half a day, being locked in his room for hours and associating his piano with loneliness was heartbreaking. I wondered to what extent Mattie was aware of this and what (if any) support she provided Prince while this was happening. We know his mother issues also haunted him his whole life.
It's incredible that Prince was able to find a way to succeed and thrive despite such challenging conditions at a young age. It says a lot about Prince's fierce self-reliance and discipline, ironically learned from his father.
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