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Thread started 12/17/19 7:54am

jdcxc

Prince and Career Disappointments

Prince had one of the most remarkable and lengthy creative runs of any Pop Star ever. But of course there were low points...

*The artistic and audience failure of Under the Cherry Moon?
*The financial and box office struggles of the LoveSexy tour and album?
*Emancipation, following his personal family tragedy?


What do you think were his personal career low points...from his perspective?
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Reply #1 posted 12/17/19 7:55am

Genesia

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From his perspective? Nobody here can know that.

We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves.
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Reply #2 posted 12/17/19 9:42am

funkaholic1972

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Hard to tell, we don't know how Prince experienced this. There were certainly more career disappointments:

  • Grafitti Bridge was (to me) an even worse disappointment than UTCM.
  • What about the whole Rave album? Certainly must have been a huge disappointment.
RIP Prince: thank U 4 a funky Time!
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Reply #3 posted 12/17/19 10:06am

ladygirl99

I read somewhere that from For You to Controversy, he struggled with album sales and Warner Bros was going to get ready to drop Prince but the 1999 album success saved him.

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Reply #4 posted 12/17/19 10:51am

luv4u

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Genesia said:

From his perspective? Nobody here can know that.


lol

Edmonton, AB - canada
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Ohh purple joy oh purple bliss oh purple rapture!
REAL MUSIC by REAL MUSICIANS - Prince
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Reply #5 posted 12/17/19 3:22pm

TrivialPursuit

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Genesia said:

From his perspective? Nobody here can know that.


Bingo. Anything else is personal opinion and conjecture, at best.

This experience will cover courtship, sex, commitment, fetishes, loneliness, vindication, love, and hate.
http://bit.ly/1D3FG2U
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Reply #6 posted 12/17/19 3:30pm

nonesuch

TrivialPursuit said:

Genesia said:

From his perspective? Nobody here can know that.


Bingo. Anything else is personal opinion and conjecture, at best.

Sure, as most of what is being posted in this Forum is.

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Reply #7 posted 12/17/19 3:54pm

bonatoc

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jdcxc said:

Prince had one of the most remarkable and lengthy creative runs of any Pop Star ever. But of course there were low points...

1. The artistic and audience failure of Under the Cherry Moon?
2. The financial and box office struggles of the LoveSexy tour and album?
3. Emancipation, following his personal family tragedy?

What do you think were his personal career low points...from his perspective?


1. Nonsense. Artistically it was brilliant. Camera placement and editing can be questionable.
But no one in the Nay aisle gets how much it was a slapstick comedy in the first place.
They would like to have another movie, but it is what it is, and the artistic direction is flawless.

2. You put Lovesexy in the list? How about Graffiti Bridge, a much stronger contender for disappointment?
Lovesexy was a critical success, made every record of the year top ten list, and the tour as well.
Now it cost a fortune, and that's another subject. It was sold out all over Europe.
Only the U.S. leg was disappointing.

3. Emancipation is packed with classics. It may run too long, but I don't understand people needing just peaks. Every good album has peaks and valleys. And I think you got your chronology wrong.
The tragedy happened as he was starting to promote the album, and a good portion of the material was recorded way before the definitive track list.

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #8 posted 12/17/19 3:57pm

bonatoc

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One thing for sure, Negativity had her minus sign today.

What exactly is expected from the OP kickstarting threads like these is beyond me.
Twenty pages of orgers ranting?

I think I'm going to put on PFunk right now.

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #9 posted 12/17/19 5:47pm

homesquid

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Regardless of their artistic merit the following were undeniable flops for him. He didn't have many but a few of them were notorious like th etwo movies.

"Under The Cherry Moon" movie

"Lovesexy" disappointing album sales. Needed "Batman" to save his finances.

"Graffiti Bridge" movie

"Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic". Big hopes and plans. No hits. Flat sales.

"Hit N Run Phase 1". Dismal sales. Embarrassing.

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Reply #10 posted 12/17/19 5:57pm

RJOrion

jdcxc said:

Prince had one of the most remarkable and lengthy creative runs of any Pop Star ever. But of course there were low points...

*The artistic and audience failure of Under the Cherry Moon?
*The financial and box office struggles of the LoveSexy tour and album?
*Emancipation, following his personal family tragedy?


What do you think were his personal career low points...from his perspective?



gettin shit thrown at him, and being called faggot and [N word snip - luv4u] by the crowd on the Rolling Stones tour...
[Edited 12/17/19 17:58pm]
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Reply #11 posted 12/17/19 6:41pm

rdhull

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how morbid

"Climb in my fur."
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Reply #12 posted 12/17/19 7:07pm

poppys

What do you think were his personal career low points...from his perspective?

Since he was really only personally competing with himself, because geniuses that far ahead of the field have that dilemma, we will never know.

As far as "dismal sales" goes - I don't get the feeling he gave a rat's ass about that - at least not the way most (industry minded) people do. Doubt if it was much of a bar for him at all, beyond affording the desire to create more.

"an attack against me, I've reported it. I won't respond further while I wait for your post to be removed." - Troll

"I don't mind trolls but if you can't fight back, there's just no reason to hang around an unfair situation." - Rodeo Schro 17 yr orger
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Reply #13 posted 12/17/19 9:42pm

TrivialPursuit

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rdhull said:

how morbid


this.

This experience will cover courtship, sex, commitment, fetishes, loneliness, vindication, love, and hate.
http://bit.ly/1D3FG2U
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Reply #14 posted 12/17/19 9:54pm

LoveGalore

TrivialPursuit said:



rdhull said:


how morbid




this.



We get it. Neither of you like the thread. Luckily, reading is opt-in.
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Reply #15 posted 12/17/19 10:31pm

jdcxc

bonatoc said:



jdcxc said:


Prince had one of the most remarkable and lengthy creative runs of any Pop Star ever. But of course there were low points...

1. The artistic and audience failure of Under the Cherry Moon?
2. The financial and box office struggles of the LoveSexy tour and album?
3. Emancipation, following his personal family tragedy?

What do you think were his personal career low points...from his perspective?


1. Nonsense. Artistically it was brilliant. Camera placement and editing can be questionable.
But no one in the Nay aisle gets how much it was a slapstick comedy in the first place.
They would like to have another movie, but it is what it is, and the artistic direction is flawless.

2. You put Lovesexy in the list? How about Graffiti Bridge, a much stronger contender for disappointment?
Lovesexy was a critical success, made every record of the year top ten list, and the tour as well.
Now it cost a fortune, and that's another subject. It was sold out all over Europe.
Only the U.S. leg was disappointing.

3. Emancipation is packed with classics. It may run too long, but I don't understand people needing just peaks. Every good album has peaks and valleys. And I think you got your chronology wrong.
The tragedy happened as he was starting to promote the album, and a good portion of the material was recorded way before the definitive track list.



1. Susannah told a story of Prince on the ground and crying after seeing the completed movie. She said he was inconsolable. I agree with some of your critiques of the movie and enjoy its quirks.

2. I was mostly referring to the disappointing US concert sales (hurt album sales), which impacted US tour decisions for years to follow. Several of his bandmates and associates have spoken on him being rattled by the response to the tour. Michael Bland brought it up in a recent podcast. Obviously, artistically the tour and album are masterpieces.

3. Emancipation was met with mixed reviews and average sales. The promotion was interrupted by his family tragedy and the demise of the record label. After years of fighting WB, this project failed to live up to the high standards he had set up for himself. The stress must’ve been monumental. He performed little of the music live in the Jam of the Year Tour. I also like most of the album, which has genius highpoints.

Any brilliant artist has commercial, personal and artistic disappointments.
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Reply #16 posted 12/18/19 2:12am

robertgeorge

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LoveGalore said:

TrivialPursuit said:


this.

We get it. Neither of you like the thread. Luckily, reading is opt-in.

I think the thread is perfectly fine. Critiquing his career is perfectly valid. Don't listen to those people who certainly seem to misunderstand the word morbid or are being deliberately obtuse in their interpretation of your post. I think morbid would suggest that this thread was coming from a hateful or negative place which I do not believe it does.

To answer your question, I think that Prince did feel that at times, his artistry was of more concern than selling out, and people weren't ready for some of his ideas. For example he said that critics had not got the Wizard of Oz at first and he was proud of Graffiti Bridge because it was a positive story that was not full of violence or curse words.

But, I do think that as a Gemini Prince was also compelled by traditional success as well and held this dichotymy within himself. He wanted to have the most albums under his name in the record stop. He liked the prestiege of the 100 million dollar contract, and would have loved to have beaten Purple Rain as much as Michael Jackson always wanted to beat Thrilller. As such aside from the amazing artistic strides he made, he was hurt by the relative lack of success of Around the World in a Day, the lack of success particularly in the US of his albums, the lack of Grammy recognition for Sign O the times when U2 cleaned up, the fact the Lovesexy tour could not sustain itself, the lack of ability to follow on the momentum for albums post Diamonds and Pearls, the lack of success of Emancipation and caving to the pressure to play the hits in concerts.

That being said, his championing of Ingrid Chavez, Mavis Staples, etc in his Paisley Park label, his releasing of albums such as NEWS and triple cd sets, the variety of risks he took which I will not elucidate showed that Prince certainly did not wantonly cave to the pressure to be the top of the pops, but when he did make efforts to reach the top such as Rave and it did not pay off, I feel it stung. Stung like a son of a biscuit eater.

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Reply #17 posted 12/18/19 5:20am

jaawwnn

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UTCM is a mess, a highly enjoyable mess but it's pretty much for fans only. I think Prince wanted an absolute classic but ended up with a strange 80s cult movie. I believe the story of him being inconsolable just before release. It does at least look beautiful.

I'm not sure he ever really spoke about Graffiti Bridge aside from that interview where he said something along the lines of like "imagine what I could have done with a real budget," I wonder if he rated it when the dust had settled? The musical film he had been planning would probably have been better than the half-hearted Purple Rain sequel we got but who made the final decision on it? Do we know?

As for the rest... I'd wager Rave was one, a good album sure but it was one of the few times where he trusted the money men and it didn't work out. Normally he trusted his artistic instincts and complained when the money didn't follow, which is fine, at least he still has his dignity there. I doubt he had many regrets.

[Edited 12/18/19 5:20am]

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Reply #18 posted 12/18/19 7:00am

macaylasdad

I think the question is what do fans think we Prince's career disappointments, remember he once said GB will probably be more appreciated in like 50 years. Since I can't speak for Prince and what he thought, I will give my opinion:

  • Disappointment of UTCM movie and Parade sales
  • Lovesexy album & Tour ticket sales
  • Graffiti Bridge movie
  • prince album sales
  • WB lack of interest in promoting and releasing his music post 1992
  • EMI label collapsing and killing any momentum for Emancipation
  • Of course Rave, I believe he was lead to believe to follow the Santana formula would work

I think everything after 2000 aren't career disappointments to him as everything was on his own terms.

I think the next thread should be "what did Prince feels was a success and was proud of.

[Edited 12/18/19 10:32am]

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Reply #19 posted 12/18/19 7:04am

lurker316

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bonatoc said:

jdcxc said:

Prince had one of the most remarkable and lengthy creative runs of any Pop Star ever. But of course there were low points...

1. The artistic and audience failure of Under the Cherry Moon?
2. The financial and box office struggles of the LoveSexy tour and album?
3. Emancipation, following his personal family tragedy?

What do you think were his personal career low points...from his perspective?


1. Nonsense. Artistically it was brilliant. Camera placement and editing can be questionable.
But no one in the Nay aisle gets how much it was a slapstick comedy in the first place.
They would like to have another movie, but it is what it is, and the artistic direction is flawless.

2. You put Lovesexy in the list? How about Graffiti Bridge, a much stronger contender for disappointment?
Lovesexy was a critical success, made every record of the year top ten list, and the tour as well.
Now it cost a fortune, and that's another subject. It was sold out all over Europe.
Only the U.S. leg was disappointing.

3. Emancipation is packed with classics. It may run too long, but I don't understand people needing just peaks. Every good album has peaks and valleys. And I think you got your chronology wrong.
The tragedy happened as he was starting to promote the album, and a good portion of the material was recorded way before the definitive track list.



I liked UTCM too, but you and I are in the minority. The overwhelming concensus was that it was an artisitic failure.



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Reply #20 posted 12/18/19 7:39am

PliablyPurple

No matter how happy he looked in '91 at the 4:09 mark of the Gangster Glam vid, surely the man came to be disappointed in his sartorial choice of the moment.

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Reply #21 posted 12/18/19 8:08am

poppys

LoveGalore said:

TrivialPursuit said:


this.


We get it. Neither of you like the thread. Luckily, reading is opt-in.


Luckily, deciding who "likes" a thread is an opt-in opinion to read too.

"an attack against me, I've reported it. I won't respond further while I wait for your post to be removed." - Troll

"I don't mind trolls but if you can't fight back, there's just no reason to hang around an unfair situation." - Rodeo Schro 17 yr orger
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Reply #22 posted 12/18/19 9:04am

rdhull

avatar

poppys said:



LoveGalore said:


TrivialPursuit said:



this.




We get it. Neither of you like the thread. Luckily, reading is opt-in.



Luckily, deciding who "likes" a thread is an opt-in opinion to read too.




lol
"Climb in my fur."
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Reply #23 posted 12/18/19 9:32am

LoveGalore

poppys said:

LoveGalore said:

TrivialPursuit said:
We get it. Neither of you like the thread. Luckily, reading is opt-in.


Luckily, deciding who "likes" a thread is an opt-in opinion to read too.

[Snip - luv4u]

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Reply #24 posted 12/18/19 9:55am

poppys

LoveGalore said:

poppys said:


Luckily, deciding who "likes" a thread is an opt-in opinion to read too.


[Snip - luv4u]


[Snip - luv4u]

"an attack against me, I've reported it. I won't respond further while I wait for your post to be removed." - Troll

"I don't mind trolls but if you can't fight back, there's just no reason to hang around an unfair situation." - Rodeo Schro 17 yr orger
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Reply #25 posted 12/18/19 10:12am

jdcxc

robertgeorge said:



LoveGalore said:


TrivialPursuit said:



this.



We get it. Neither of you like the thread. Luckily, reading is opt-in.

I think the thread is perfectly fine. Critiquing his career is perfectly valid. Don't listen to those people who certainly seem to misunderstand the word morbid or are being deliberately obtuse in their interpretation of your post. I think morbid would suggest that this thread was coming from a hateful or negative place which I do not believe it does.

To answer your question, I think that Prince did feel that at times, his artistry was of more concern than selling out, and people weren't ready for some of his ideas. For example he said that critics had not got the Wizard of Oz at first and he was proud of Graffiti Bridge because it was a positive story that was not full of violence or curse words.



But, I do think that as a Gemini Prince was also compelled by traditional success as well and held this dichotymy within himself. He wanted to have the most albums under his name in the record stop. He liked the prestiege of the 100 million dollar contract, and would have loved to have beaten Purple Rain as much as Michael Jackson always wanted to beat Thrilller. As such aside from the amazing artistic strides he made, he was hurt by the relative lack of success of Around the World in a Day, the lack of success particularly in the US of his albums, the lack of Grammy recognition for Sign O the times when U2 cleaned up, the fact the Lovesexy tour could not sustain itself, the lack of ability to follow on the momentum for albums post Diamonds and Pearls, the lack of success of Emancipation and caving to the pressure to play the hits in concerts.

That being said, his championing of Ingrid Chavez, Mavis Staples, etc in his Paisley Park label, his releasing of albums such as NEWS and triple cd sets, the variety of risks he took which I will not elucidate showed that Prince certainly did not wantonly cave to the pressure to be the top of the pops, but when he did make efforts to reach the top such as Rave and it did not pay off, I feel it stung. Stung like a son of a biscuit eater.



Well Put. How can you examine any complex ARTIST without examining the highs/lows, artistic peaks/valleys and commercial success/failure?

If the Estate Documentary does him justice, a great director would also dig into these subjects.
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Reply #26 posted 12/18/19 10:32am

poppys

^^ Dissect another topic all you want - the OP says from his perspective. Genesia nailed it immediately.

"an attack against me, I've reported it. I won't respond further while I wait for your post to be removed." - Troll

"I don't mind trolls but if you can't fight back, there's just no reason to hang around an unfair situation." - Rodeo Schro 17 yr orger
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Reply #27 posted 12/18/19 10:40am

LoveGalore

poppys said:



LoveGalore said:




poppys said:




Luckily, deciding who "likes" a thread is an opt-in opinion to read too.




Your would-be burn makes no sense. Nobody clicked this thread wanting to read multiple bouts of bellyaching from the geriatric crew who walks around like cranky hall monitors here.




They are called opinions. And wading through your Mayte et al hating posts is no picnic to ignore either. Submit your mod application and leave the rest of us alone.



[Snip - luv4u]
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Reply #28 posted 12/18/19 10:47am

Genesia

avatar

robertgeorge said:

LoveGalore said:

TrivialPursuit said: We get it. Neither of you like the thread. Luckily, reading is opt-in.

I think the thread is perfectly fine. Critiquing his career is perfectly valid. Don't listen to those people who certainly seem to misunderstand the word morbid or are being deliberately obtuse in their interpretation of your post. I think morbid would suggest that this thread was coming from a hateful or negative place which I do not believe it does.

To answer your question, I think that Prince did feel that at times, his artistry was of more concern than selling out, and people weren't ready for some of his ideas. For example he said that critics had not got the Wizard of Oz at first and he was proud of Graffiti Bridge because it was a positive story that was not full of violence or curse words.

But, I do think that as a Gemini Prince was also compelled by traditional success as well and held this dichotymy within himself. He wanted to have the most albums under his name in the record stop. He liked the prestiege of the 100 million dollar contract, and would have loved to have beaten Purple Rain as much as Michael Jackson always wanted to beat Thrilller. As such aside from the amazing artistic strides he made, he was hurt by the relative lack of success of Around the World in a Day, the lack of success particularly in the US of his albums, the lack of Grammy recognition for Sign O the times when U2 cleaned up, the fact the Lovesexy tour could not sustain itself, the lack of ability to follow on the momentum for albums post Diamonds and Pearls, the lack of success of Emancipation and caving to the pressure to play the hits in concerts.

That being said, his championing of Ingrid Chavez, Mavis Staples, etc in his Paisley Park label, his releasing of albums such as NEWS and triple cd sets, the variety of risks he took which I will not elucidate showed that Prince certainly did not wantonly cave to the pressure to be the top of the pops, but when he did make efforts to reach the top such as Rave and it did not pay off, I feel it stung. Stung like a son of a biscuit eater.


Of course, it is. But that's not what the thread is about. The OP specifically asked for people to speculate as what Prince's critique would be of his own career. See the difference?

We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves.
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Reply #29 posted 12/18/19 10:48am

Genesia

avatar

LoveGalore said:

poppys said:


Luckily, deciding who "likes" a thread is an opt-in opinion to read too.

[Snip - luv4u]

[Snip - luv4u]

We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves.
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