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Thread started 08/05/19 3:59pm

CherryMoon57

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Exploring the origins of rap music


*** This thread is originally based on the question below, but has now been edited as the discussion has progressed towards how rap started. ***

***Please feel free to contribute with your own finds and suggestions! ***


_Original topic_____________________________________________________________________

Could Ray Charles have been the original inspiration behind rap music? I can almost hear Tone Loc's Wild Thing throughout Greenbacks...

Check it out:

https://www.youtube.com/w...cZxZDP_3Es

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFh0J8Ph18U

[Edited 8/6/19 5:35am]

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Reply #1 posted 08/05/19 4:18pm

MickyDolenz

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There's songs from the 1920s that could be considered rap. Square dance cadence is kinda rapping too. But what became titled as rap is supposed to be based on toasting from Jamaica.

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #2 posted 08/05/19 4:37pm

CherryMoon57

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MickyDolenz said:

There's songs from the 1920s that could be considered rap. Square dance cadence is kinda rapping too. But what became titled as rap is supposed to be based on toasting from Jamaica.


Wiki mentioned this 1950's song (Gotta Let You Go by Joe Hill Louis): https://www.youtube.com/w...rTMPGOoAfY

What did you think in terms of similarities of flow between the 2 songs posted earlier (Greenbacks and Wild Thing)?

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Reply #3 posted 08/05/19 4:54pm

PeteSilas

big bad john the country tune is where rap came from, then, devil came down to georgia which inspired so many in the gangsta rap era.

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Reply #4 posted 08/05/19 5:03pm

MickyDolenz

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PeteSilas said:

big bad john the country tune is where rap came from

Frankie Jaxon was rapping in the 1920s, long before this song and he dressed in drag too. What Cab Calloway was doing is also proto-rap. Lucille Bogan was using dirty language on her songs in the 1930s.

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #5 posted 08/05/19 5:09pm

MickyDolenz

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As far as gangsta rap goes, the much recorded song Stagger Lee (aka Stagolee) is actually about murdering someone, not about a fiddle contest with the devil. There's a lot of drug songs during the early decades of the record business, especially in blues.

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #6 posted 08/05/19 5:14pm

PeteSilas

MickyDolenz said:

PeteSilas said:

big bad john the country tune is where rap came from

Frankie Jaxon was rapping in the 1920s, long before this song and he dressed in drag too. What Cab Calloway was doing is also proto-rap. Lucille Bogan was using dirty language on her songs in the 1930s.

damn right, and scatting was an early form of the improvisation rappers do, but big bad john was where it was at. this jaxon cat looks interesting, i'll check him out later. thansk

[Edited 8/5/19 17:17pm]

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Reply #7 posted 08/05/19 5:17pm

MickyDolenz

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CherryMoon57 said:

What did you think in terms of similarities of flow between the 2 songs posted earlier (Greenbacks and Wild Thing)?

I don't hear a Wild Thing flow in this song.

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #8 posted 08/05/19 5:32pm

MickyDolenz

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Probably the 1st song in which the entire track sounds like a hip hop song is Here Comes The Judge by Pigmeat Markham. This song from 1968 could have been re-released in the 1980s or 1990s and people might have thought it was a new song

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #9 posted 08/05/19 5:45pm

MickyDolenz

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Before the Sugarhill Gang record came out, those long talking parts on records by Millie Jackson, Bobby Womack, Barry White, James Brown, Issac Hayes, etc were called rap. Be For Real by Harold Melvin & The Blue Notes is an example of this. These raps did not rhyme though.

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #10 posted 08/05/19 6:00pm

PeteSilas

people tried to give a young cassius clay credit for being the creator of rap. like rock or any music there are a millin tributaries.

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Reply #11 posted 08/05/19 6:22pm

namepeace

No. But he may deserve some credit. Numerous artists, from Cab Calloway to Gil Scott-Heron and Oscar Brown, Jr. have been credited with being forefathers of rap music, which the D.O.C. once described as


Rhythmic

American

Poetry

Rap has many forefathers across generations of black music and black history itself. Some more prominent than others. It didn't just spring from one particular artist.

Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #12 posted 08/05/19 7:00pm

PeteSilas

namepeace said:

No. But he may deserve some credit. Numerous artists, from Cab Calloway to Gil Scott-Heron and Oscar Brown, Jr. have been credited with being forefathers of rap music, which the D.O.C. once described as


Rhythmic

American

Poetry

Rap has many forefathers across generations of black music and black history itself. Some more prominent than others. It didn't just spring from one particular artist.

ya, that's all true. ali boasted and rhymed and his speech patterns always did have a musicality to them all of it's own. And just being ali was a "blast furnace of racial pride" that changed black consciousness arguably nearly as much as anyone else. Of course the influence was felt far beyond his time and place and even his race, touching a little Injun' like me here in Seattle.

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Reply #13 posted 08/05/19 7:47pm

namepeace

PeteSilas said:

namepeace said:

No. But he may deserve some credit. Numerous artists, from Cab Calloway to Gil Scott-Heron and Oscar Brown, Jr. have been credited with being forefathers of rap music, which the D.O.C. once described as


Rhythmic

American

Poetry

Rap has many forefathers across generations of black music and black history itself. Some more prominent than others. It didn't just spring from one particular artist.

ya, that's all true. ali boasted and rhymed and his speech patterns always did have a musicality to them all of it's own. And just being ali was a "blast furnace of racial pride" that changed black consciousness arguably nearly as much as anyone else. Of course the influence was felt far beyond his time and place and even his race, touching a little Injun' like me here in Seattle.


Amen.

Ray Charles re-shaped the sound of American music itself.

Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #14 posted 08/06/19 12:11am

CherryMoon57

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No doubt there really is a guy rapping like hip-hop on The Jubilaire - Noah, starting at 0:33 then at 1:31! cool

Very hip-hop talking rythm on this one too: https://www.youtube.com/w...NzKZ7lJRUc


[Edited 8/6/19 0:32am]

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Reply #15 posted 08/06/19 12:25am

CherryMoon57

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They pimped it up on this one: https://www.youtube.com/w...ixdH1346l0

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Reply #16 posted 08/06/19 12:48am

CherryMoon57

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MickyDolenz said:

PeteSilas said:

big bad john the country tune is where rap came from

Frankie Jaxon was rapping in the 1920s, long before this song and he dressed in drag too. What Cab Calloway was doing is also proto-rap. Lucille Bogan was using dirty language on her songs in the 1930s.

Yeah he actually came to mind right after I started the thread. While searching for Frankie Jaxon I stumbled upon this song, in which you can hear some very clear rap at 0:50: https://www.youtube.com/w...hVQ1TjZa20

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Reply #17 posted 08/07/19 8:40am

jjhunsecker

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What I feel could be an early rap song is...(don't laugh)... "Magic Carpet Ride" by Stepenwolf. Listen to it with rap in mind, and you can hear a rap cadence to the vocal. And I believe a rap group covered it in the 80s, I think it was Grandmaster Flash

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Reply #18 posted 08/07/19 11:30am

CherryMoon57

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jjhunsecker said:

What I feel could be an early rap song is...(don't laugh)... "Magic Carpet Ride" by Stepenwolf. Listen to it with rap in mind, and you can hear a rap cadence to the vocal. And I believe a rap group covered it in the 80s, I think it was Grandmaster Flash

lol (only joking) Yeah I can hear a bit of a cadence in their song though it sounds like Grand Master Flash only used some instrumental parts. Nice find.

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Reply #19 posted 08/08/19 10:58am

CherryMoon57

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I wanna tell you about Texas Radio and the Big Beat... 1971 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laAT18_YbDo

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Reply #20 posted 08/09/19 3:31pm

CherryMoon57

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History of Rap – The True Origins of Rap Music

Rap music is undeniably one of the most popular music genres to date but how well do you know the history of rap? Join me as I take a stroll down memory lane and revisit the origins of what we know today as Hip-Hop.

What does rapping mean?

Rap is actually a very old word. You can find the term popping up as early as the 15th and 16th century in Britain. Initially the word rap meant to strike or to hit. A few centuries later a slight variation of this definition appeared which meant to speak or talk. In America around the 1960’s it began to pop up in the black community and was used as a slang word to mean that someone was talking or having a conversation.

The roots of rapping

Thousands of years ago in Africa “griots”, where village story tellers who played basic handmade instruments while they told stories of their family and local current events. This style of talking while music is playing is rap music as we know it at its root form. The griot is still a major form of communication in Africa still to this day.

This griot tradition carried over when Africans were captured against their will, transported to America & forced into slavery. One way they would cope with the tremendous amount of pain & heartbreak of slavery would be to sing. While they were working in the fields they would often sing using “call to answer”. One leader would call out a certain part of a song and the rest of the slaves would answer with the next line. In modern times performing artists call this emceeing or crowd participation.

History is about to be made

On August 11, 1973 in the Bronx, New York history was about to be made. DJ Kool Herc (now known as the first DJ & founding father of hip hop) & his sister Cindy began hosting back to school parties in the recreation room of their building. It was these gatherings that would spark the beginning of a new culture we know today as Hip-Hop. One night during J Kool Herc’s set he tried something new he called “merry go round”. He used two turntables playing the same break beat section of the James Brown record “clap your hands”. When one turntable would finish playing the section he would switch to the other turntable and play the same section. This allowed him to extend that section of the song as long as he wanted. This technique is now referenced to as looping and is used by record producers in almost every beat.

history of rapD

From emcee to rapper

As DJ Kool Herc continued to do more parties he realized that speaking on the mic was just as important to keeping a party live as DJing was. In order to keep up with the demands of the crowd he reached out to his good friend Coke La Rock to be the first dedicated MC of these parties. During one of these parties Coke La Rock spit his very first bar, ” There’s not a man that can’t be thrown, not a horse that can’t be rode, a bull that can’t be stopped, there’s not a disco that I Coke La Rock can’t rock”. This one bar made Coke La Rock the very first rapper in Hip-Hop and birthed a new genre of music we know today as Rap music... https://colemizestudios.c...rap-start/

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A train is leaving all day
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Reply #21 posted 08/09/19 3:56pm

CherryMoon57

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Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #22 posted 08/10/19 7:01pm

MickyDolenz

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If you want information about early hip hop, The Foundation's channel on Youtube is a good place. He also has a website too with interviews with early MCs, DJs, session musicians like members of the Sugarhill records house band, and behind the scenes people. Although it's more about hip hop after 1990, you might want to check out Drink Champs. There's a few interviews with mid to late 1980s people like producer Marley Marl, Kid n Play, & LL Cool J. One of the 2 hosts (N.O.R.E.) tends to talk over people though, especially if he's gotten drunk. It's not called Drink Champs for nothing. lol A few of the acts being interviewed don't participate in the drinking or smoking part.

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #23 posted 08/11/19 2:16am

CherryMoon57

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MickyDolenz said:

If you want information about early hip hop, The Foundation's channel on Youtube is a good place. He also has a website too with interviews with early MCs, DJs, session musicians like members of the Sugarhill records house band, and behind the scenes people. Although it's more about hip hop after 1990, you might want to check out Drink Champs. There's a few interviews with mid to late 1980s people like producer Marley Marl, Kid n Play, & LL Cool J. One of the 2 hosts (N.O.R.E.) tends to talk over people though, especially if he's gotten drunk. It's not called Drink Champs for nothing. lol A few of the acts being interviewed don't participate in the drinking or smoking part.


That's great, I'll check it out, thanks Micky!

Open your heart open your mind
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Reply #24 posted 08/11/19 3:58pm

CherryMoon57

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Gabriel Jackson
(born May 27, 1963), better known by his stage name Spoonie Gee is one of the earliest rap artists, and one of the few rap artists to release records in the 1970s. He has been credited with originating the term hip hop and some of the themes in his music were precursors of gangsta rap.



pumpkin

Errol Eduardo Bedward, better known by his stage name Pumpkin was a musician, percussionist and band leader. He was renowned for being the one behind many old school hip hop tracks for the Profile, Enjoy, and Tuff City record companies.[1][2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/...poonie_Gee


He worked with several important early hip hop acts from 1979 to 1984, such as
Spoonie Gee, Treacherous Three, Funky Four, Grandmaster Caz, The Fearless Four, and Dr. Jeckyll & Mr. Hyde, as well as a host of more obscure names. https://en.wikipedia.org/...(musician)



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Reply #25 posted 08/11/19 3:59pm

CherryMoon57

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Spoonie Gee - Spoonin' Rap (1979)

https://www.youtube.com/w...xN1xrLRvGU

PUMPKIN - THE ORIGINAL KING OF THE BEAT FOUNDATION LESSON #2 JAYQUAN

https://www.youtube.com/w...jreload=10

Treacherous Three - New Rap Language

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlTvgyUBTRs

Spoonie Gee - Love Rap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfWfiP_x6WE

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Reply #26 posted 08/12/19 3:40pm

MarshallStacks

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As with ALL things, I have to say that a huge figure in the beginnings of this style was ...

JAAAAAAMES BROWN!!

cool

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Reply #27 posted 08/13/19 7:37am

Cinny

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MickyDolenz said:

what became titled as rap is supposed to be based on toasting from Jamaica.

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Reply #28 posted 08/13/19 6:13pm

RJOrion

Cab Calloway
Bo Diddley
Johhny Cash
James Brown
Pigmeat Markham
Joe Tex

...and in African and the Caribbean, griots would always rhyme over drum beats since history has been recorded...but commercial rap as we now know it, originated in the Bronx, NY, from Jamaicans who would "toast" at house parties and block parties
[Edited 8/13/19 18:15pm]
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Reply #29 posted 08/17/19 3:46pm

CherryMoon57

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The Last Poets - Mean Machine (1971)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDJCqdXzGAA



(Chant)
Automatic push-button remote control
Synthetic genetics command your soul
Automatic push-button remote control
Synthetic genetics command your soul

Driving me nuts, bolts, screws
I got the blues from paying dues
For programmed news of honeycoated lies
Your eyes can't believe
That weave the Devil's magic with the latest gadget
From the Mean Machine
A'running the Same Game with Another Name
Down in your brain, blowing your mind
Stealing your time, smooth and slick
With the latest trick to get rich quick
From nonsense at your mind's expense
As your mind digs the scene
From the Mean Machine
Designed to drive your brain insane
Loudspeakers blasting inside your head
Saying what someone else said
For you to do what they want you to
No. Go. Fast. Slow.
Getting you high off the latest lie
Telling you when, where, how and why
As your mind digs the scene
From the Mean Machine,
A'running the Same Game with Another Name
Factories of insanity playing on your vanity
As they distort your sense of self
Telling you what you need and how to succeed
As they steal all of your wealth
Probing your mind, trying to find
How to scheme on you best
From programmed schools with Devilish rules
Putting you to the test
Death dealing devices sold at high prices
Designed with you in mind to buy
As they kill you slow and some of y'all don't even know
Y'all paying the Machine to die
Mechanized lies dressed up in disguise
In forms of various kinds
Treachery and deceit the people must defeat
In the battle for free men's minds
For complete domination is the goal of this nation
Of all free thinking thought
And those who oppose will be killed by their foes
The flunkies whose souls have been bought
Transplants to revive the living dead
Replacing the truth with lies instead
Newspapers, radios, TVs
Spreading lies across the seven seas
Robot men with computers for brains
Space ships, cars, trains and planes
All calculated to blow your mind
Moving faster than your sense of time
Living luxuriously soft while the people slave hard
For the Devil would have you believe he is God
Chemical drugs that keep you high
While the Mean Machine creates another lie
For power and glory and world wide fame
While Running the Same Game with Another Name
It's the computer's equation for world wide invasion
That comes in the name of peace and goodwill
But all of them are lying as they keep on trying
To set the people up for the kill
Population control of the people with soul
All over the planet Earth.
Manipulating their will with a tiny white pill
To control their natural birth
Behind the scene schemes furthering the Mean Machine's
Dreams
Of conquest and world domination
From the farthest depths of the universe
To the smallest earthly nation
Radar, Sonar, Laser beams!
Jets, Tanks, Submarines!
Megathons, H-Bombs, Napalm, Gas!
All this shit will kill you fast
All products of the Mean Machine
The Devil disguised as a human being
And he will even preach that God is dead
And some of y'all will believe what the Devil has said
And he will then act as the world's police
And the sun will rise up in the West
And set down in the East
And when it came time to the end...
And when it came time to the end...
And when it came time to the end...
The men will look like the women
And the women like the men
And some will dance in a hypnotic trance
Like as if they have no care
But these will be signs of the changing times
That the end is drawing near
For it was prophesized many centuries past
That the end will come in a fiery holocaust
And only the righteous people will survive the blast
And the Devil's machine will bring about its own end
And peace, love and joy will reign once again
And man will understand man
And man will understand man
And man will understand man
And man will understand man
And man will understand man
And man will understand
And live in harmony and peace
And the sun will once again
Rise up in the East

[Edited 8/17/19 15:50pm]

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